Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

[MaggieFS]

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

And holding Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hamas is ok? And mass murdering them for the actions of Hamas is ok?

Ffs.

As you’ve brought it up, that seems to be what you’re suggesting, not me.

ACCORDING TO THE EX ICC CHIEF ISRAEL IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE

And yet all Hamas have to do to end the blockade is stop firing missiles into Israel, release the 200 hostages, call a ceasefire and come to the table for peace talks.
Oh, and Hamas could also stop stealing fuel, water and medical supplies from the Palestinians who desperately need them.

Edited to remove extra word.

Hamas could stop blocking the Rafah crossing as well.

From the Guardian:

“Hamas militants have stopped people from approaching the Rafah crossing,a US state department spokesperson said.
Speaking to CNN, Matthew Miller said the sporadic presence of Hamas at the crossing has made the situation “extremely difficult”.
At times, Hamas has had no one there manning the border station. At other times, we have seen Hamas militants actively there with guns preventing people from approaching the crossing.”

Yes they should ofcourse I'm not pro Hamas here by any means
But which safe place should the other 2.1 million people in Gaza go to? To evade Israels air strikes?

Every time I mention any of the crimes Israel has and is committing I am immediately met with well what about Hamas. As if I for one am pro Hamas which i find quite insulting because it happens every single time. Or secondly that ordinary citizens in the free world hold terrorists and a democracy to the same standards

There is no suggestion of you being pro-Hamas, where did you see that?

The Israeli actions you’re posting about are a response to Hamas- they are inextricably linked, yet you persistently portray them as if they are not. Israeli air strikes-provoked by Hamas killing hundreds of people in Israel and injuring thousands more and firing thousands of rockets into Israel, which they continue to do every day. Israeli blockade-provoked by Hamas taking over 200 hostages and refusing to return them, stealing fuel, water, medical supplies and other aid from their own people, the strong likelihood of Hamas using any aid convoys to smuggle in more weapons and they are blocking the Rafah crossing themselves. There is a lot of talk about context and that things don’t happen in a vacuum and I agree.

You will now no doubt counter by switching to talking about settlers and “Hamas don’t exist in the West Bank”, which is another false narrative I’m seeing take hold on here.

@25milesfromhome

I have been seeing alot of Hamas steals the supplies but I haven't found any credible sources for it. If you have any, if you could send it on here please?
A third party verified credible source.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hamas-accused-stealing-aid-while-second-convoy-crosses-gaza-1720873

’Last week, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) reported that Hamas had stolen the humanitarian supplies that were to be given to Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
UNWRA, which donates more than $1 billion to Palestinian causes each year, said that the essential supplies included fuel and medical items.
In a report, the UNWRA spoke of a group claiming to be Hamas Health Ministry officials, who used a truck to steal more than 20,000 tons of gasoline and medicine.
The gasoline was to be used to power sanitary water plants that would be used by almost one million Palestinians in Gaza.
Although the UNWRA deleted their statement shortly after, UN and Israeli officials confirmed that the theft had taken place.
Hillel Neuer, the Executive Director of United Nations Watch, declared: "We estimate 24,000 litres of fuel, that's enough to power water desalination plants for four days to provide water to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians."’

This was later deleted, I would imagine under extreme duress.

One thing I don't quite understand is why Jewish people feel safer in Israel than in western countries. Israel has always been subject to terrorist attack and has always lived defensively (and offensively) it doesn't feel a very safe country to me. None of my Jewish family (secular, professional jobs comfortable UK life, no strong religious beliefs') have ever even raised moving to Israel as an idea. And these people are only in the UK because our ancestors left central Europe about 100 years ago.

Is the antisemitism really so bad in the UK/US/France etc ?
The only Jewish people I know are as described above so maybe they/we aren't at the sharp end.

One thing I don't quite understand is why Jewish people feel safer in Israel than in western countries.

@Kendodd

Less casual (and increasingly overt) antisemitism creeping into their everyday lives would be one reason. Even the most subtle and covert incidences have a huge impact when you've had a lifetime of it. And safety in numbers I suppose. UK Jews make up a really tiny proportion of the population in the UK so maybe that's the draw. Threats of and actual antisemitic-driven violence including murder is another (this is why so many French Jews have emigrated in the last 10 years and I know members of my family in France have felt pretty nervous although don't think any of them have considered Israel as an option and like, me they are very secular).

Moving to Israel is not something I've ever remotely considered doing, not until the last few weeks, which is ludicrous given the danger there, like you say. If I didn't have a non-Jewish DH and family, then maybe it's something I would currently consider, but that could be just a knee-jerk reaction to increased hostility towards Western Jews. But I can say I feel very, very uncomfortable in the UK at present.

Is the antisemitism really so bad in the UK/US/France etc ?

Yes, it's becoming pretty awful and the overlap between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is becoming quite pronounced.

One branch of my forbears lived in London and could remember Oswald Moseley's rallies, which would have been about 100 years ago, I reckon.

I had thought that that sort of stuff had gone and I find it hard to describe how I have felt in the last few years, when there has been this big thing about anti-semitism in the Labour party.

I am not Jewish. I find it concerning that after all these years there are Jewish people in some parts of the UK who do not feel comfortable.

What etmoi wrote, as another Jew here in the UK. I wouldn't, for example, wear a necklace with a star of David on it in public, I'd feel too nervous. Normally at Hanukkah we also put our candelabra in the window for everyone to see and while I'm hoping we're all in a far different place politically come December I am already thinking up an excuse for my six year old as to why we can't.

I'm quite bolshy and "take no shit" generally, if that's useful context.

I don't think I'd ever move to Israel but I absolutely feel like a fish in water there. I live in a non-Jewish area, weirdly I don't seem to present as Jewish even though Jews clearly recognise me as such (I have allllll the visual stereotypes....), and even just explaining, for example, that I can't join in the lovely carol service because we are not allowed into churches gets me funny looks. And no, no pork whatever or prawn whatever for me. You never quite know how it'll go when you tell people. I had an employer who'd just hired me break into a visible sweat when I mentioned I was Jewish, because he was worried I'd want Friday afternoons off if only. I imagine if he'd known beforehand he'd have just found a reason not to hire me rather than risk an uncomfortable conversation. That sort of thing.

it's cheaper land.

No, that's not why Jews move there so I can only assume that a) you had no interest in reading the responses from Jewish people giving reasons, and b) you're regurgitating an age-old antisemitic trope and three words is all it took you.

Is the land not cheaper?

How is it cheaper land? My SIL lives in the poorest city in central israel and a 2 bed flat costs the same as my London flat in z3 north london with far lower salaries to boot. Rabbi Leo Dee said in an interview that his wife wanted to move to Efrat (settlement near Jerusalem) because she was worried that they would get priced out of Efrat if they continued living where they were in radlett (radlett's average house price was £1.2 million last year). I can only conclude Efrat is extraodinarily expensive which is weird because I thought the whole point of the settlement was that it was supposed to be cheaper than proper Israel (but apparently not).

Many people I know who have moved there do so because being part of the majority does have its advantages. You don't need to explain shabbat or jewish holidays (was unable to get leave for yom kippur this year so fasted while WFH). You have a far larger pool of people to date. If you are observant, you can have a picnic on Tel Aviv beach on shabbat as opposed to walking around a north london park on a rainy autumn day. Many of my SIL's friends were doing it (they went to a religious jewish girls school).

DH and I have never considered it but then again I am a convert (so my connection to zionism is less strong because I was never educated at a jewish school or joined the zionist youth movements). DH said he did feel a strong connection to Israel as a teen (it led him to wear a kippah around for approximately 2 weeks before he gave it up) but he is now largely irreligious. Also we are pretty settled and happy in London.

Thank you for always giving quite a open unbiased explanation and always done very politely 😊 I have learnt alot from your posts about the issues of settlements and also how many Israelis oppose it too. Especially in the west bank

I don't feel safer in israel but i am very aware that my synagogue might get attacked (and I go regularly). No kids yet, but may reconsider sending them to jewish school when the time comes (I am from a progressive congregation so jewish school is not a must for me and it probably wouldn't be good for my anxiety levels).

At the same time, I don't really feel you are safe anywhere really- its choosing between potentially being shot in a synagogue attack or dying in a middle eastern war (seems to happen every two years, big or small) as all your neighbours hate you.

For me I would consider other things when choosing where to live- earning potential vs cost of living for example but many Zionists would disagree. Many of them believe Israel is the only place a Jewish person should live and if things are less ideal, then its something we need to change as a people.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-wife-and-daughters-were-murdered-in-the-west-bank-but-i-dont-regret-moving-here-p69lrpkp5

in Leo Dee's words. I admit when the tragedy first happened, I was quite judgmental (did not understand why they couldn't just live in proper Israel like my family members who have far less money), but having read these interviews and talked to other Jewish friends, my viewpoint has become more nuanced.

'To answer these questions, on Thursday evening I visited Leo Dee at his home in Efrat, a large Jewish settlement in the West Bank, a mere nine miles from Jerusalem.

Dee, 51, has astonished the world with his reaction to losing his wife and two daughters. A rabbi by training, he has given a series of emotive, electric speeches at funerals and news conferences in the past fortnight. He insists that he feels “no hatred” for the perpetrators, but has also demanded that the world treat these murders with moral clarity; as an evil deed, not a two-sided political act.
Dee welcomed me into his home, a large modern hillside apartment. He insisted I take a plate of sushi from the mounds of food brought in by neighbours. The official shiva mourning period is over, but three memorial candles for Maia, 20, Rina, 15, and Lucy, 48, still sat on the ledge, their wax consumed.
Dee was steady if bright-eyed. He wanted to talk. “This is like my therapy,” he said. His three remaining children, Tali, Yehuda and Keren, wandered in and out of the kitchen, seemingly numbed. A family of seven has become four.

And so they went to Israel, to live their Zionist dream. Unsurprisingly, given his intellect, Dee ended up taking his rabbinical exams at Brovender’s, described as the “Harvard” of religious colleges. The college was located in Efrat, in the occupied West Bank.
Established in 1983, Efrat is one of the most prominent Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It is affluent — a typical four- bedroom apartment costs around £600,000 — and has a population of around 12,000. It has shopping centres and schools and synagogues and is home to a diverse community of modern orthodox Jews, many of whom are from America, Britain or South Africa.
But Efrat is also a gated town in a fiercely contested land. The town itself is quite safe but travelling around the West Bank, particularly during times of strife, can be a hazardous affair.

Lucy felt trepidation when they first arrived, but she fell in love with the place. “This is the story of an ordinary English girl, the girl next door, not some kind of religious nutter,” said Ben Shaw, her brother. “She loved Efrat because it is a kind and empathetic community. And look what’s happened to her.”
After four years in Efrat, the couple came back to London where Dee took up posts as a rabbi, first in Hendon, then in Radlett, a plush appointment in a wealthy area of Hertfordshire.

But Jewish life in London seemed like a pale imitation of the real thing. It was not the place they wanted to raise their children, who had been born in both Israel and Britain. The idea of a purer existence called them back.
In 2014 they returned to Efrat for good, raising eyebrows among some in their Radlett community. Lucy became an English teacher, Dee launched a clean tech investment fund.

Why Efrat? Why the West Bank? Primarily it was the Brovenders connection that brought them back there. But there is also a dynamism to these settlements, a sense of purpose and possibility, building a Jewish future based on an ancient creed and a belief that this land is part of both biblical and therefore modern Israel. Efrat is a town full of children and playgrounds. “It’s just a lovely environment,” said Leo. “You never worry where your children are here.”
And yet according to international law, the Jewish presence here is illegal (something Israel disputes). Nearly three million Palestinians live in the West Bank, suspended angrily in a state of democratic infancy, their lives trammelled and intruded upon by the state of Israel, which has military control over the area, also home to a settler population of some 600,000. There is terror and resistance on one side, reprisal and control on the other. It is an angry stasis.'

*Sigh.
I was NOT saying it was right, I was saying this is what I perceive will happen due to human fucking nature.
Read it again with your bias off.

Just listening to the athletes Bianca and Ricardo on the radio, and the racism they, and all black people, face in the UK. Bianca talked about leaving the UK to escape the racism. I wonder if the day to day racism just grinds people down more than the threat of bombs would (for Jews in Israel). Also, in Bianca and Ricardo's case, where would they even go? I don't imagine they have a right to live in any African country (?) and the fact that their ancestors may have come from there will count for nothing.

my SILs both made aliyah and I don't think either thought of bombs. the older one went to Israel as a young graduate, at a time(2017) when you could rent a room in Florentin, a very bohemian and rapidly gentrifying area of Tel Aviv for the equivalent of £400. You could rent nowhere in London for that cost.

She is the same age as me and my DH (her brother) is two years older. At that time, we were living in north london in the family home, also starting our careers and earning very little money. There is a program called MASA which offers Jewish graduates internships, accommodation (house share) and free hebrew lessons; and if you are from a family with a low household income (like my SIL), you can even get a scholarship. So this was a chance to get a free place to live independently as a young adult, an opportunity to jumpstart your career, all in a country with good weather! Most mumsnetters would probably approve of their kids signing up! she moved to israel, gained many friends, met her current DH, got married there, got a dog and had a baby in that order. The rent costs has just grown and grown though, that cheap rent in Florentin is but a distant memory. And Aliyah money only goes so far in such an expensive country

In 2017, she probably felt like she was escaping me and DH's fate of being stuck in the family home, though what happened to DH and I in the following years was that we managed to get better jobs, save up £90k and bought a flat in London with the consequence that we have a fairly cushy life now (more so than most young Israelis as London salaries are overall higher with a lower cost of living to salary ratio). But I suppose in 2017, you wouldn't have known that, you would just have seen two young people stuck in the family home.

The younger SIL is in the process of making aliyah, i think what happened was that her flatmate decided to move back to London, she needed a new place to live so she decided to follow in her older sister's footsteps. She still refuses to fly back to London during this period as her application would be voided if she leaves the country plus she has a boyfriend now.

People move to other places for all sorts of reasons and i think for most people, anti-semitism is but one aspect and probably not the deal breaker. For most people, it is a decision made based on the facts that you have at a single point in your life and once that is made, you can't turn back the clock. You may think you can always go back, but in reality, your decisions have consequences that mean that it is increasingly hard to go back to the point from which you started. I think people (who are not in dire circumstances like the Ukrainians) make aliyah because they had a vision of what their life would be in Israel (versus their home country) and they make the decision and then it is hard to see life through any other lens. and once you go down that path, you feel the need to justify your life choices.