Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

[MaggieFS]

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

It's just as deeply offensive to use Black mumsnetters and Black people as a gotcha while implying that what you'd do is what every non-Black person will do on the BMN board or with Black people irl.

Black people and Black mumsnetters still face, multiple times a day or on every other thread, what you're saying the poster is doing to you; BMN and Black people in general still face pushback, backlash and whitesplaining from non Black people both on BMN and real world till this day.

So please stop using Black people to make a point - an inaccurate one at that - where they're not specifically concerned. Black people have enough to deal with without being used as pawns in an argument.

So that means 43% of British Jews are not Zionists. I'm sure they can't be against the state of Israel (I'm not) so what does this mean.

My DH and I would not say we are zionists. We are still Jews with family in Israel and wish it well. Some of the more ardent zionists can believe that all Jews need to live in Israel. Dh and i do not believe that at all! DH and I would like Israel to be a secular state with rights for Jews, Muslims and Christians alike to practice their religion (and a place for refuge for persecuted Jews), so therefore we may not classify ourselves strictly as zionists because of this as most zionists seem concerned with israel solely being a jewish homeland.

However this does not diminish in any way my support for Israel's sovereignty (it is a sovereign state) though I disagree with the actions of its current government. It is a young country and will make a lot of mistakes, I understand that but I think we need to push her to become better. I know of no jewish person who wishes for the state of israel to disappear the way many supporters of Palestine seems to wish for.

Many years ago, (40) I was nanny for a very relaxed, non-Orthodox Jewish family. The resented sending money to Israel via the synagogue, but felt they had to "because where else would we go - if......'

What a lovely post! So balanced.
The only quibble I have is your final sentence: I know of no jewish person who wishes for the state of israel to disappear the way many supporters of Palestine seems to wish for.
I don't think that's true and it certainly isn't anything I have read from Palestinians on this site or in the media. It may be true of some Hamas members, but Hamas is not the population of Gaza. As a supporter of Palestinian rights I wish for them to have equality, not domination. Just as I would support Israel if the boot were on the other foot, as it were, if they were the downtrodden underdogs. But they're not, are they?

It's so sad that it seems impossible to speak about this disparity without accusations of antisemitism. My big fear is that Netanyahu is risking turing Jews around the world into pariahs. As well as God knows what China will do while everyone's eye is off the ball...

Thank you for both of these posts.

80% of the Israeli population disapprove of Netanyahu so Palestinians are not alone there. The problem at it's heart is many palestinians speak of going home. Unfortunately that 'home' is no longer there or someone else is living there. Israelis have been living there for over 70 years, they don't want to give it up. You probably wouldn't want to in their situation..

I think the problem a lot of Jews have is that everyone seems obsessed with Palestinian nationalism movement but don't care about Kurdish independence or Catalan independence. That's why they suspect it's antisemitism, Jews get their homeland which they have been singing about for generations and now people tell them that it's occupation.

Another issue is that there are Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas who don't just want equality, they want to kill Jews. This makes Israelis very scared - how do they differentiate civilians from hamas. Most Jews I know support a two state solution but they are also concerned about the safety of israel- would this new state invade, what can we do to mitigate that risk etc. In truth this relationships doesn't have trust, they issued work permits to palestinian workers in the Gaza strip and then suddenly there is the most awful terrorist attack since the Shoah....

What really has literally dumbfounded me is the pro Israeli posters here saying that the Palestinians should stop pining for a land (they can't even call it their 'home) and find somewhere else to live, as if they are less human and/or devoid of emotion and human needs. The Jewish people have not been there for 70 years, 20,000 new olim (immigrants) made aliyah last year alone. No one in the world with a right mind would see that as fair. And it's not about them being Jewish, they could have come from the moon, it's the principle.

@lavender2023 I really like your posts and I hope you realize I'm not being goady or attacking. Would you want a working relationship with someone who stole your land and home? I wouldn't. The two state solution will never work because it is not intended to be a 50:50 division with equality.
I'm not with Palestinians because they are Palestinian, I'm with them because of the illegal and glaringly obvious human rights violations. It's utterly sickening that some posters are talking about them as if they are subhuman. But it's not surprising I suppose, as that is how the founders of the Zionist movement positioned them.

Actually jewish people have always lived there.one famous example are the Sephardim who were expelled by the Spanish king in the 1500s, some ended up in Jerusalem. There were several great migrations- late 1800s to 1930s, post war as refugees. The middle eastern Jews came after the Muslim countries expelled them after 6 day war. Then the Russians came when the Soviet Union fell and this has persisted till now. British, American, Canadian Olim have always made up a negligible percentage. Ethiopian Jews were airlifted to Israel after their great famine, most Jews have never heard of them before but they are part of our family. Interestingly Kaifeng Jews ( province in china) rediscovered their roots after exposure to Judaism by western tourists, they have mostly all made aliyah now.

Unfortunately we can't redress every grievance. We should maybe grant Wales and Scotland independence if that is the case. I don't think it's very sensible to do it at this stage. I think the Palestinians should have a state but whether every olive tree in Jaffa should revert back to them, not sure about that. I disagree with them being turned out of Sheikh Jarrah, there must be some compromise.

Sorry @lavender2023 when I said they havent been there 70 years I meant not as a static population. New people are coming every year, whilst the Palestinians who have been expelled have no right to return to the homes they've lived in for decades. It's a travesty.

The problem (which is irreversible) is that Zionism has become entwined with Jewish identity. You can argue that Judaism always had a Zionist element as literally every prayer has the word Israel in it and we always say next year in Jerusalem at our Passover tables.

For many Jews today, supporting Israel is how they express their Judaism. speaking from an Anglo perspective, most Jews are no longer that religious. But they are proudly Zionist.

And if they were orthodox Jews, their beliefs sadly are not much more helpful to the debate either, they range from 'god gave us the land of Israel' to 'god gave us the land of Israel so we must settle it including in the west bank ' as well as 'the state of Israel is illegitimate cos it is not governed by Jewish religious law' or 'we need to wait for Messiah to come before we can have a state of Israel '.

They are not going to become less Zionist. In fact as time goes by, they will only become more fervently Zionist.

So the way these threads generally work is:

1. Excuse my ignorance as I don't know much about the Arab Israeli conflict (really?) but could someone please explain to me [insert something emotive]
2. post some factually incorrect comments and deny certain events took place
3. when countered / challenged or corrected immediately shift to whataboutery
4. quickly moving on to conspiracy theories
5. once seeds of doubt are planted revert back to denial

The thing is both sides of this debate are driven by conviction and will dismiss any factual information that shows their comments to be fake news. Nothing will ever change both sides views and unless we stop emotive opinions and instead stick to the facts then it will be impossible to reach a peaceful solution.

Many of the new people coming are Ukrainian Jews who are fleeing war. If they didn't go to Israel, they would probably be coming to the UK. Israel was founded as a place of refuge for Jews.. I think though we have reached peak Aliyah for the countries which are not UK/USA/Canada/Australia. Most of those troubled areas have lost most of their Jews.

Which is why the future of Aliyah relies on western countries. There is still a big gap in earning potential /quality of life/prospects between Israel and UK/USA/ France (which have the largest Jewish community). Esp USA. There is actually no reason for them to leave these countries other than antisemitism or a religious conviction (most Jews in UK/UK are not religious in the orthodox sense so the latter is still not common). I must say the increase in antisemitic attacks since 7 October would probably lead to an increase in Aliyah applications after this war is over so counterproductive really. My SILs did make Aliyah but I do have reason to believe that the one who has been there for several years is also considering other options other than Israel as it's a tough life (from a Brit's perspective).

Israel’s massacring of thousands and forced evacuation of over a million Gazans is “Israel just defending itself”.
…isn’t it?

Some of the Settlers are nothing short of terrorists themselves
To the point even biden criticised them today
Why is Israel enabling these crazies?

Biden offers rare criticism of 'extremist settlers' in West BankThe US president has offered a rare criticism of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, saying they are "attacking Palestinians".
Joe Biden has repeatedly said Israel needs to defend itself against Hamas, while protecting innocent civilians in Gaza.
"I continue to be alarmed about extremist settlers attacking Palestinians in the West Bank," Mr Biden said during a news conference.

"They're attacking Palestinians in places that they're entitled to be."

It's good to know that 80% of Israelis disapprove of Netanyahu. Why is he still in power, he seems an absolute crook?
You make a good point vs other independence movements. Yet I don't believe it's antisemitism to focus on Palestine rather than Kurds or Catalans, rather a case of far more news over the years about Israel and Palestine and therefore a tendency to form (perhaps simplistic) opinions.

I don't know how true it is that Palestinians want to live in Israel. I think they want to live fairly and independently from Israel, without having things like having their power and water cut off at Israel's whim. I don't know all the facts about the blockade but without it, given the opportunity for Gaza to build it's own economy, would workers even need to get permits to work elsewhere?
Most observers don't really understand why the situation is quite so difficult. It seems that Jerusalem is important to both. Why are two strong religions engaging in mutual hatred (a generalisation of course - I suspect many ordinary people have friends and acquaintances of the other religion).
Why does Israel continue to engage in land-grabbing though? It has been precarious from the start. but it seems like the 6 day war in 1967 conceived Hamas.
Yeats' The Second Coming seems quite prophetic...What rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born

Coalition politics - religious voters vote in blocs and their leaders support netyanahu (who gives them money to learn and not work). The left is also pretty much dead in Israel due to the security station and netanyahu is a very good politician.

Israel grabs land because it has an army of willing idiots (sorry that is the best way to describe the religious zealots who believe god gave them the land and are willing to risk their families' safety by settling the occupied territories). It sees this as a defensive strategy, creating a buffer zone between the Palestinian land and Israel.

@Twillow don't forget Jerusalem has religious significance for Christians too, who are also being oppressed as Palestinians and they too join in the protests and resistance movements. I don't believe this is a religious war at all, it's a Jewish (whether that's religious/race/ethnicity) vs Palestinian war. Israel wants the land for itself and fully intends to suppress the self determination of Palestinians, regardless of their religion.

My understanding is that Jews lived in Jerusalem "in biblical times", indeed, in other places around the country, too. The first temple was built in the time of King Solomon. I can't remember why it ceased to be, but a second temple was built in its place, I guess. The second temple is the one which Jesus went to when he was about 12 and was in when he was angry about the dodgy trading which was going on there. By then the Romans were in charge. Was the second temple destroyed about AD70 and was it by an earthquake? Anyway it was destroyed. Later, when the Turks(?) were in charge (officially the Ottoman Empire) they built a Muslim building on the same site - I think that is the gold-domed one you can see today, called the Dome of the Rock.
The site is important to Christians, Jews and Muslims. (notice that I have written them in strict alphabetical order as fairest way to do it) Sorry if I'm teaching my grannies to suck eggs. There was a time when I didn't know all this and then I was told about it, and it is interesting, even if sad-making.

The First Temple was destroyed in the Babylonian Siege of Jerusalem. The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans- the sacking of which largely funded the construction of the Colosseum

Also, @Twillow , what did you mean by this?

My big fear is that Netanyahu is risking turing Jews around the world into pariahs.

*turning not turing.
That Jewish people around the world, regardless of their politics, will be tarred with the actions of Israel. Some people sadly need only the smallest thing to despise or attack others. I despise racism in all forms, but in a world that's ever more precarious - politically, economically, geophysically - people have their backs to the wall. That makes them defensive, suspicious, hostile. We have two nations (well, one state, one occupied territory...) that seem intent on annihilating each other. One has the power (and seemingly the support of other Western nations) to do this. No-one in their right mind says that Hamas were right to attack Israel. Big but... there is an understanding of why Hamas are pissed off with Israel. Consequently Israel appears the bully, and Jews will be blamed for that.

I don't know how true it is that Palestinians want to live in Israel. I think they want to live fairly and independently from Israel, without having things like having their power and water cut off at Israel's whim. I don't know all the facts about the blockade but without it, given the opportunity for Gaza to build it's own economy, would workers even need to get permits to work elsewhere?
Most observers don't really understand why the situation is quite so difficult. It seems that Jerusalem is important to both. Why are two strong religions engaging in mutual hatred (a generalisation of course - I suspect many ordinary people have friends and acquaintances of the other religion)

Firstly if you don’t know much about the subject you should educate yourself before commenting. This is not two strong religions, it’s one group of people who want to exist and another which is a depraved maniacal death cult with the stated aim of annihilating Jews. Free Palestine means eradicate Jews.

This is a stunningly bad take and your ignorance is embarrassing. I’ll just point you in the direction of this, from the IHRA (non legally binding) working definition of antisemitism:

• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.