Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

[MaggieFS]

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

@Meshigenus it's not a contest, my point is we can't use history to allow Israel to continue this war. Both sides have dead children need i remind you - Israel and Palestine. We have to hold both accountable. If every comment against Israel is picked apart and called anti semitic than does Israel get to do as it feels is right? No one is allowed to criticize Israel?

I’m not saying anti semitism does not exist

But this is how you're argument is coming across though. You said this, for instance:

"A Jewish person is not clearly an other"

Antisemitism cases have risen in London alone by 1,353% in the last two weeks. How do you explain that, if Jews are not "an other" as you claim.

The nature and level of racism direct towards different minority groups isn't a competition.

Totally wrong and compelte misunderstanding of history and what goes on in the middle east.

As recommended earlier, read Akiva Eldars 'Lords of the.Land' if you really want to understand the settler movement.

No, this war is not a land grab. Its a response to an existential threat funded by Russia and Iran on israels border.

I criticise israel all the time, no.one ahs called me anti semitic.

Hamas is an existential threat to israel, funded by Russia and Iran. Israel needs to get rid of hamas to protect its own citizens. Just like any other country would.
If 10000 Brits had been slaughtered and over 1000 taken hostage, I can assure you, Britain would do the same and then some. Israels primary responsibility is to its own citizens.

As a progressive I'm getting really tired of subjective and biased takes on this complex war.
I disagree with demonizing an entire country. imagine being Jewish right now and being told you don't have the right to your own country. the conflict and mutual hatred has gotten so bad at this point that no one can be the one to stop first.

Hamas has the expressed goal of killing all Jews, intentionally targeting civilians and hiding among their own children women and elderly, killing their own if they dare to dissent. Israel govt is right wing and unhinged, also driven by personal interest and thirst for power.

Can someone please educate me on something please? I would really prefer a Jewish person explain something to me. I understand Judaism is an ethnoreligion, which is why there is a claim to the region. Let's say I met a guy and converted; I am not Jewish, have no lineage to Judaism, but fancy a Jewish guy and he asks me to convert and so I do. We get married.

Do I get right to live in Israel? the same right that is bestowed on all Israeli Jews? Do our kids get the right to make Aaliyah and get subsidised housing and flights and live under Israeli law?

this is history repeating itself again and again in 16th and 17th century English Christians that were not C of E moved to USA to avoid religious persecution ( the pilgrim Fathers) also Germany and Swiss Anabaptists ( Amish Menonoites Hutterites etc) moved a bit later for same reasons. as more people moved they pushed native americans off their land and settled there instead There is no big push to say these groups should move back to UK Germany etc. jews had started to move back to Israel before WWI the big movement first started in late 19th century then more moved because of Pograms in Russia etc then more still after WWI but before WWII. MAny Irish and Scots moved to USA Canada Australia and New Zealand to escape poverty and again took land from other people just giving them tiny parcels back. The Western world is not really in a position to throw stones at Israel. it is OK to say we know that isn't right now but precious little is done to right previous wrongs
After WWII a lot of Jews that were in Tehran and other Middle Eastern countries etc moved back to Israel as persecution there was moving up a notch too. There is no doubt Palestinians have been moved off their land, It is also true that some Jews have lived in this area for thousands of years. There was a Jewish temple in Jerusalem where the dome of the Rock is for approx 900-1000 years with various rebuildings until destroyed by Emperor Titus in 70AD and the forced expelling of Jews from Israel. You can't just go back to 1948 and WWII

Is there a distinction between maternal lineage whereby the mother was born Jewish to a long lineage of Jews, and a mother who was Christian/Hindu/Muslim, who then converted?

thank you. this is actually putting things into perspective.
we can only wait and hope for this to end hopefully soon

NJ, but I have GPT-4 (the subscription-only version) and it gave me the following answer:
The concept of the right to make Aliyah (immigrate) to Israel is rooted in the Law of Return, which was enacted in 1950. It states that every Jew has the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a new immigrant).
To your specific questions:

1. Conversion and Aliyah: If you convert to Judaism through an established and recognized Jewish denomination, you might be eligible to make Aliyah under the Law of Return. However, the recognition of conversions for the purpose of Aliyah has been a matter of debate, especially when it comes to conversions done outside of Israel. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform conversions are generally recognized, but there might be differences based on where the conversion took place and under which authority. It's always best to check with the Jewish Agency or relevant Israeli authorities about specific cases. It's also worth noting that conversions done purely for the sake of marriage, without sincere religious commitment, might be scrutinized.
2. Rights in Israel: Once you've made Aliyah, you gain the same rights as any other Israeli citizen. This includes access to certain benefits for new immigrants, such as tax breaks, language courses, and other assistance. The specific benefits can change and are determined by the Israeli government.
3. Children: If you and your husband have children, those children would typically have the right to make Aliyah and access the same benefits, since they would be considered Jewish by birth, especially if the mother (you, in this case) is recognized as Jewish.
4. Subsidised Housing and Flights: New immigrants often receive financial assistance, which can include subsidized flights to Israel and help with housing. However, the specific benefits and the duration for which they are available can vary.
5. Living under Israeli law: Once in Israel, everyone lives under Israeli law, whether they came through the Law of Return or any other means.

Lastly, remember that the situation can be complex and the rules or policies can change. If someone is genuinely considering making Aliyah, it's always a good idea to consult directly with official agencies, like the Jewish Agency or the Ministry of Aliyah and Integration, to get the most accurate and up-to-date information.

@paperflowers55
Sadly as an israeli I can't say you're wrong about elements in the current government.
The sooner there is an emergency unity government the better.

then make it clear your are criticizing their government and not the whole country. if you just say "Israel is evil" it is invalidating towards the people who live there who just want to have a peaceful life

Ok thank you, but can someone verify this and maybe shed light onto how easy it is to convert to Judaism outside of Israel? Say in the US/ Northern Europe?

Because I would imagine it would be very strict no?

Otherwise this all adds to alot of confusion I already have about understanding the history of Middle Eastern politics

Both sides refuse a lot of requests. And the God of israel, OT in the bible was the same God who told masters they could beat their slaves,but not kill them mind you. But as long as they recovered after 2-3 days. Leading to the bible belt evangelicals crazies using it to justify keeping slaves, and beating them, and using their White supremacy for their disgusting actions. A good knowledgeable of theology and history is key here. See how many white Christian Americans used the bible to jusitfy it at the time. It's shocking. Some of the same lot still believe in supreme race, and do come across as war crazy and racist.

not only that, but I discovered that a lot of left wing progressives, queer people especially (??!!) absolutely despise Israel (as a whole country) and Jewish people. it boggles the mind I thought they shared my values. I think everyone should be treated equally and with tolerance most of all.
I've seen horrendous comments on twitter saying things in the lines of
"of course I don't support what Hamas did but I can't tell oppressed people how to resist so now is the perfect time to post about how much I hate Israel"

You’re making the point I’m trying to make. It’s not a competition. We need to look at the situation in an unbiased way, not letting history and allegiance to a religion to cloud our judgment on what’s happening.

@piddocktrumperiness I think that it would depend on how religious the person looking at this arrangement is.

So a reform community might accept a conversion as Jewish but an orthodox community may not.

Also Israeli law requires you to be married by an orthodox rabbi (if a Jewish wedding) and generally orthodox rabbis will only marry "proper" jews.

I'm sure someone will correct me if the above is wrong but many Israelis go abroad (often Cyprus) as their marriage is not considered legal if it's conducted by the reform movement.

It's caused a few issues in my wider family!

on another note Israel is the only country in the middle East where you can be LGBTQ? Tel Aviv is very liberal some areas of Jerusalem are very orthodox so would not be welcome but it is not illegal. In the way it is viewed in most other countries nearby: where you could be imprisoned or even executed for such views

My understanding of a trip we did many years ago to Jerusalem was all 3 religions lived together quite well, until politics came about. There have always been Jews living with Christians and Muslims living in palestine and Judea.

@paperflowers55 if you read my previous posts you'd see that I mentioned the Israeli government.

@Cottagecheeseisnotcheese Ok, but many LGBTQ travel to the Emirates? They love Dubai.They love Beirut. I don't get your point really.

We have conversion therapy in the USA, and only very recently allowed same sex marriage. And we are considered a wealthy and progressive, secular country. We have issues navigating the rights of the Trans community

I know quite a few of my queer friends who hate it when people use being gay or not whenever it comes to politics in the ME. It happened during the World Cup, it always happens when Israel is attacked too. They are devastated by what is happening in Gaza.

"yeah but do you know what they do to gay people" is not a response to killing children.

@Cottagecheeseisnotcheese Also, to your previous post which I enjoyed; do you think a day will come where the UK government will apologise for all its previous wrongs?

I haven't read the thread but Louis Theroux did a doc on this about 10 years ago which is still on the iplayer. Worth a watch:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp

@Meshigenus But I'm being called an anti semite on this thread for criticizing Israel.

So Londoners are treating Jews at par with all other non British. What's wrong with this 😔