Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

[MaggieFS]

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

@noblegiraffe ah yeah, I forgot that one, I would also need no one to deliberately out me based on my DNA (or other information about me they might gather).

Seems totally reasonable

Scary stuff, they are collecting data. A list of Jews to target. Where in history have we seen this before I wonder

Twitter is horrific for Jews. I left it after lockdown. Apparently it is way worse now with Musk, I don't want too even imagine.

My father told me when I was in my twenties to never put on forms or officially that I am Jewish. I thought at the time he was being too paranoid. I mean I am strong enough verbal and emotional to bat away a bit of antisemitism. This stuff has gotten more big and dark now though. Turns out my father was giving me good advice.

I’ve come to the conclusion it’s almost impossible for most people to criticise Israel without slipping into antisemitism. I’ve seen a lot of pro Palestinian supposedly anti racism activists on SM try to turn this into a white colonialism issue, calling for free Palestine, with zero mention of the collective trauma of most of the Jewish settlers. Is there a Jewish family alive who weren’t affected? Staggering really. If only all those Jews knew they could have just identified out of being Jewish. Anyone who can even comment on this whole war without mentioning the holocaust seems bordering on holocaust denial levels of antisemitism. But they simply can’t see it. This is where the ‘left’ (which I’m firmly on btw) absolutely fall down.

For anyone who is Israeli here. Why do your government allow this to happen? Why are they allowing the settlers to harass and take over Palestinian land in the west bank?

I WOULD URGE EVERYONE TO READ THIS ARTICLE
posted today in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

Anyone questioning why Jews might want their own homeland would also do well to look at history prior to the Holocaust.

England expelled Jews in 1290 and only let them back in in 1655 for example.

There's a long Wikipedia article about Jewish expulsions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews

Ah, now I understand why children are being murdered in Gaza in 2023.

Why does the 'only' democracy in the middle east allow this to happen?? And then act suprised when they get a retaliation

They didn’t leave us air to breathe,” said Zawahri, 52, describing a months-long campaign of violence and intimidation that intensified in the last two weeks. First villagers were barred from grazing lands, and the spring, then violence reached their homes.
“They came into the village and destroyed houses and sheep pens, beat an 85-year-old man, scared our children. Slowly our lives became unlivable.”
A few men are trying to stay on amid the shells of homes, empty animal pens, smashed solar panels and broken windows, staking a fragile claim to their own village.

That wasn't the question I was answering. If you read my first paragraph you will understand the point I was addressing.

@User98866 thus is what the Palestinians in the west bank face every day
This was just in the guardian today

They didn’t leave us air to breathe,” said Zawahri, 52, describing a months-long campaign of violence and intimidation that intensified in the last two weeks. First villagers were barred from grazing lands, and the spring, then violence reached their homes.
“They came into the village and destroyed houses and sheep pens, beat an 85-year-old man, scared our children. Slowly our lives became unlivable.”
A few men are trying to stay on amid the shells of homes, empty animal pens, smashed solar panels and broken windows, staking a fragile claim to their own village

I have attached the article in my previous post

Yes, I was facetious. Apologies.

In general though, I’m tired of seeing people reference things that happened hundreds of years ago as a reason for the people who are currently alive to justify murdering people. This applies to all people in all countries everywhere.

I wasn't using it to justify murdering people.

However, understanding the current situation does require knowledge of events that happened hundreds, or even thousands of years ago, therefore it is useful to bring them up.

For example, it explains that the Holocaust wasn't a one-off persecution of the Jewish people.

Knowledge of the history also explains why Israel was created where it is. I've seen people asking why the Jews weren't given a remote area of Canada instead of a place where people were already living. It's also important to know that the creation of the state of Israel wasn't an idea that was come up with after the Holocaust but had been discussed politically for decades before then and Jews had already been moving there.

Cod God told them to! God is now telling both sides to kill the other. Seems a strange psychopathic god if you ask me!

The thing I find most egregious is that if I had posted on a thread that concerned the black community and a number of black Mumsnetters said to me that my post was racist even if I hadn't intended it that way at all I would be a) mortified b) incredibly apologetic and c) if books or links were suggested to me that highlighted why my words might be interpreted that way I would have the humility to read them and educate myself.

Posters on this and the other similar threads just carry on telling me my understanding of antisemitism is wrong and then continue to be even more offensive.

Like a previous poster, I do not support the settlements. I have demonstrated in Westminster against the current Israeli government. I feel desperate at the plight of innocent Palestinians. And yet I've never been accused of antisemitism because I know the difference between the Israeli Government. Israel. Israelis. And "The Jews"

thanks for reference.
In truth I tend to be doubtful of such statistics - they appear to be termed "offences"/crimes, but surely there can have been no due process on the majority of these. It is surely therefore referring to reports, which is quite different.
And also I understand includes online cases of apparent anti-semitism.
Several folk on Mnet, me included, have actually been accused of anti semitism.
Unfairly I would say.
Reported.
An Israeli government media channel also accused the BBC of repeating/expressing a "blood libel". Was that reported?
And hence included in these figures.
Strangely, the language of the Israeli media channel accusing the BBC echoed the language used against me on here, though maybe I'm out of touch with common online language usage.
We are involved in an information war here and a battle for minds.
Several folk in these threads have noted that the accusation of anti-semitism is chucked around rather freely.
Are those accusations reported and hence end up in the statistics?

For the avoidance, hopefully, of doubt - yes Israel has a right to exist, yes the Hamas actions were an atrocity, yes the mayor of London is right to try to clamp down on genuine hate crime.
Israel has been breaking so called international law for decades with an apparent free pass from the west.

@FordAnglia No. reporting a post on Mumsnet is not included in the statistics as these are incidents reported to the police. If I took into account all the antisemitism I and others read online (I'm not referring to any posts by you specifically as I haven't read yours) the statistics would be multiplied a hundred fold. That's how horrible life is for the Jewish community these days.

what I meant was that all those charges of anti-semitism on Mnet could have been reported to the police, like any other reported expressions of anti-semitism online.
You won't unfortunately be able to read what I wrote on here as the entire thread has been disappeared by Mnet HQ - I returned after half a day or so and found it gone - have no idea what had happened in between.
I was accused of claiming that there was a worldwide jewish conspiracy, complete with an entirely manufactured quote. "We see you" I was told, as was the BBC.
But as you say/confirm - these are reports to the police. Reports.
I have not so far had a knock on the door, been asked to account for myself, been charged, let alone convicted.
One thing I do know, the miscreant who hurled the charge at me could have done me serious harm in the current climate if I had shared a workplace with them.

ps @LondonMummer in my post above,

Several folk on Mnet, me included, have actually been accused of anti semitism.
Unfairly I would say.
Reported.

the "reported" should have had a question mark after it - I saw it as soon as I had posted but couldn't edit - gawd knows why Mnet doesn't allow you at least a minute or two's grace to edit typos etc - drives me nuts.

I agree. The problem with the threads about the conflict is some contributors have little knowledge/ understanding of the historical context. Hamas ( I abhor what they did) is a monster created by the way Palestinians have treated over decades.

And where did they come from in the first place? What is now Israel? Why are they different to other people living there? If we go back before biblical times. Does ancient Egypt pre date that? Where Jews around then?

The majority of Jews in Israel are not from Western backgrounds- in fact they are the minority. The majority (and their parents) are from ex Soviet Union countries, middle eastern countries or Asian countries like turkey. Where they face genuine persecution. Yes they try to encourage western olim to make Aliyah but it is actually a small percentage that take it up (I do have family there as DH is British Jewish, but they are relatively young so not sure if they will stay there forever as life is much harder compared to USA/UK).. in fact there was a stat in 2015 hat for every 2 British jews making aliyah, there were 3 Israelis moving to the UK. An MO in the Israeli parliament has said that as much as 70% of western olim leave within 5 years of coming. There are no reliable stats as many new immigrants do keep their Israeli passports.

People who question the right of Israel to exist and defend itself don't usually question the right of Singapore to exist and defend itself.. Singapore is younger than Israel and there is literally no cultural reason why it exists- it was expelled out of the federation of Malaysia in 1965 due to a difference in political ideology between the respective leaders (Singaporean leaders wanted a secular multiracial state built on meritocracy, Malaysia wanted a Muslim country with special rights to the Malays to redress colonial injustices). Otherwise the culture across both countries was almost identical. And before the British colonial period, it was all Malay land (albeit a fishing village). It was the British that brought in the Chinese and Indians and malays migrated from the rest of the archipelago. It is now over 70% Chinese and that was actually the work of the British.

Like Israel it is an accident of history like many new nation states. Even if you don't believe in the necessity of a homeland for the Jewish people (which I admit it is a religious concept which I don't fully embrace as a liberal Jew/secularist), it has been a country and UN member for 70 years and should be respected. If it wants to accept Jewish immigrants from all over the world, then that it their policy. Could they treat their non Jewish citizens better, definitely. Could they try harder to repair relations with their neighbours, definitely. But that has nothing to do with whether Israel should exist as a country, it is a country like Singapore is a country, here to stay. New nation states are often accidents of history but now they have been established, their sovereignty should be respected.

Singaporeans don’t move into Malaysia taking land/homes though. They aren’t in conflict with Malays and people move freely across the border.

I’ve yet to see any convincing justification for what the Israeli forces are currently doing to the Palestinian people, and I very much doubt that I will. Why? Because there is no justification is there?

And for the millionth time no that doesn’t make me pro Hamas or anti semitic.

Thanks @lavender2023 for that. If what you are saying is correct though, then that means that a lot of Israelis (whom I'm assuming are all Jews) prefer life in the West, so they can't be that fearful for their lives or worried that they are going to die out as a race? And I'm genuinely not being goady or argumentative here, I think discussion is very healthy and needed. But from your stats it doesn't support the claim that posters are making that a Jewish state is needed in order for Jews to flourish.

I also thought that Jews lived in Jerusalem in biblical times.