To think that water occupation is oppressive?

[Gardenowl]

Till now I had read on most of the threads that Palestinians rely on water supply from Israel because they have not bothered to build their own water supply, desalination plants etc. But then one of the posters on another thread posted a link to an Amnesty article about water occupation and I was surprised reading it. Most of the article is about West Bank not Gaza.

Isn't this extremely oppressive? And to take water from your land to supply to the neighbouring country? They must feel so helpless.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

"In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA."

"While restricting Palestinian access to water, Israel has effectively developed its own water infrastructure and water network in the West Bank for the use of its own citizens in Israel and in the settlements – that are illegal under international law. The Israeli state-owned water company Mekorot has systematically sunk wells and tapped springs in the occupied West Bank to supply its population, including those living in illegal settlements with water for domestic, agricultural and industrial purposes. While Mekorot sells some water to Palestinian water utilities, the amount is determined by the Israeli authorities. As a result of continuous restrictions, many Palestinian communities in the West Bank have no choice but to purchase water brought in by trucks at a much high prices ranging from 4 to 10 USD per cubic metre. In some of the poorest communities, water expenses can, at times, make up half of a family’s monthly income.
The Israeli authorities also restrict Palestinians’ access to water by denying or restricting their access to large parts of the West Bank. Many parts of the West Bank have been declared “closed military areas”, which Palestinians may not enter, because they are close to Israeli settlements, close to roads used by Israeli settlers, used for Israeli military training or protected nature reserves.
Israeli settlers living alongside Palestinians in the West Bank – in some cases just a few hundred meters away – face no such restrictions and water shortages, and can enjoy and capitalize on well-irrigated farmlands and swimming pools."

Let’s not be shy about what you said
”What would you, as a human being being, parent, citizen etc have wanted if it was your neighbouring villages subjected to that attack? Like literally if the town down the road from you had had hundreds of people slaughtered in their beds and others kidnapped and raped and paraded naked through the streets,..”

Take your pick, there are 400 of them to start…have been many more since these first ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1947%E2%80%931949_Palestine_war

I’ve posted the start of a long table, note many of these villages were massacred.

Exactly. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, implementing a full blockade by land, air and sea. Controlling all movement of people, goods- including food, medical supplies, construction materials and fuel for all vehicles, the power plant, back up electric generators at hospitals and the desalination water plants and sewage system, also all agricultural supplies (seeds, fertiliser, tools), these were deliberately kept below subsistence levels so Gaza could never be self sufficient and Israel then controlled the top ups needed for life of water and electricity. Jobs were limited to a quota of 10,000 work permits for a population of over 2 million, leaving most of the population reliant on humanitarian aid to live- aid that had to go through Israel and the spending of which was supervised by Israel. Oh and they built a massive wall around the entire strip with a “buffer zone” that they can shoot to kill anyone who goes in it towards the wall.

Hamas came to power in 2007- two years later- and only in Gaza. They are not in the West Bank.

So the idea that Israel did all this because of Hamas is backwards. Israel created an oppressive “open air prison” which then caused some Palestinians trapped inside to be radicalised.

Makes complete sense. Iraq had a border with Iran, but the US occupied Iraq for years. Ukraine has a border with six countries other than Russia- but yes Russia is currently occupying great swathes of Ukraine.

Every occupied territory or country is going to have borders. You don’t have to be completely surrounded by the occupier to be occupied.

They can’t import anything. Everything flows through Israel. That is what a blockade is.

This post is eye opening, and extremely sad
Thank you for sharing

I have read so many of these posts back and forths and it just feels like it is pointless debating with these types of posters. They are just bombarded by independent research and facts but the person just refuses to acknowledge it. You can’t convince them but I guess it helps the undecideds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre
Ariel Sharon led the IDF troops that did this one in 1953.
69 villagers, two thirds women and children. In retaliation for the murder of a woman and child- unsolved but blamed on local Palestinians.
“Original documents of the time showed that Sharon personally ordered his troops to achieve "maximal killing and damage to property", and post-operational reports speak of breaking into houses and clearing them with grenades and shooting”

After the massacre was condemned, Sharon stated he “thought the houses were empty”

Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel from 2001-2006

But there is not one (non kidnapped) israeli in gaza. And gaza has a border with Egypt.
How, then, is it occupied?
Basically calling it occupied was to make sure israel kept supplying it with goods, water and electricity. Thats over. They'll need to look to Egypt.

It's occupied as Israel has placed a blockade by land air and sea
Surely you understand that?

It has a border with Egypt. What's hard to understand about that? Why doesn't Egypt open the rafah crossing to whoever wants to leave?

I used to be against the blockade but can see now that it was needed. Imagine the weapons they would have if there wasn't one! They could have killed even more.
Actually prior to the massacre, because gaza had been quiet, Israel was increasing work permits, allowing exports through israeli ports. But the illusion that hamas has any desire to improve the wellbeing of gazans was well and truly burst 2 weeks ago

Interesting. So they managed to acquire all their weapons - the ak47s they used to massacre innocent civilians, the rpgs they used to blow up houses, the endless missiles they are firing at israel from thin air.
Ingenious.

Really jumping around. Now we're at Ariel Sharon. I mean fair enough, he was a war criminal. You could also have referenced the findings of Israel's own Kahan commission which found he had personal responsibility for Israel's failing in preventing the sabra and shatila massacre.

I certainly didn't vote for him and was horrified he was prime minister.

But then again who was his Palestinian counterpart at the time? Yasser Arafat. You know, the terrorist. So if its good for the goose it's good for the gander I guess. Not like Palestinian elected a saint either.

And let's not forget that Sharon had the guts to get israel out of gaza. Thank god. No left wing pm could have done that

How's that going to get water to gaza?

Jobs.....in Israel? Why should Israel give Palestinians jobs? Why can't egypt give them work permits? Give them.jobs in Europe if you want.
Israel is not responsible for the gazan job market. They were giving work permits and these were increasing, because we naively thought that would be the best way to improve the conditions in gaza.

Yes, Palestinians absolutely could have built desalination plants. They managed to build super sophisticated terror tunnels. Don't be so patronising to Palestinian ingenuity. They've shown exactly what they're capable of when it's a priority.

@WhiteHorseSpirit
You jump around all the time. The Israel hating seems to go between 1947 and present day without distinction.
Actually during the civil war while there were massacres on both sides (like the Arabs massacring Jews at the Haifa oil refinery, the hadassah convoy massacre, the kfar etzion massacre) it was less bloody than other civil wars at that time and since (like Yugoslavia, Pakistan etc).

Its also important to note that the ethnic cleansing happened on the other side too. My grandparents were ethnically cleansed from Hebron.
Anywhere the Arabs won, every single jew was ethnically cleansed. My stepmother and her family were ethnically cleansed from their Jerusalem neighbourhood.

And then of course the massive ethnic cleansing of all Jews from Arab counties which followed.

It's a sad truth that both sides did it but unlike the Arabs, a significant minority stayed and became full citizens of israel.

I dread to think what would have happened had we lost the war. I wouldn't be alive. The Arabs made it clear what our fate would be. And 75 years later, hamas has demonstrated that they most certainly meant it

@Meshigenus It is well established that Gaza is ‘occupied’. Both the UN and a number of NGOs agree with this. Yes, it has a border with Egypt but Egypt has said Israel is stopping humanitarian aid getting through that border. Israel has said it will permit it only if the UN searches it before it goes through, so obviously Israel control that border too.

Whether or not the occupation is necessary is a separate issue, but it’s definitely occupied.

Israel was supposed to give Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005. Instead they withdrew from inside Gaza but remained in complete control of its airspace, borders, electricity and water (including limiting their fishing rights so access to food). This has obviously had a very detrimental effect on the economy (given you mentioned employment) as well as the Palestinian people, and was not because of Hamas as Hamas were not elected until the following year.

WhiteHorse

Take your pick, there are 400 of them to start…have been many more since these first ones.

I read this week, in the Guardian, that a large numbers of Gazans are there because they were driven out of approximately 200 villages. The Israelis surrounded each village, bombarded it with artillery and then went in shooting.

Whoever was left was directed along a route to Gaza. Gaza is about an eighth of the size it was and is about to get even smaller.

After clearing the villages of their owners, the Israelis declared them abandoned and took them for themselves. This is ongoing in the West Bank, it's Israeli policy, because they want the entire land for themselves.

There's a very long HRW article, which shows Israeli publications to that effect, going back to 1970.

Fab, so Egypt can open its border and allow in however much is needed, of whatever is needed, and Israel has zero day in this?

Is that how the border operates?

Thought not...

Israel controls the Egypt border too, or there'd have been no need for Israeli agreement on what goes through/how/when.

Egypt doesn't want over 2 million refugees for all eternity. If the Gazans leave, they'll never be allowed back. Egypt has trouble feeding and employing its own population.

I have to say that people claiming that Israeli women weren't raped and that babies weren't murdered by Hamas are just as bad as the other side, who are claiming that Israel is blameless.

If israel is the occupying power, then why is everyone so upset that Israel may invade. If they're occupying, surely they should go and occupy if they are an occupier? You can't have it both ways.

I think everyone was so scared israel might stop supplying gaza with all that it needs they invented the concept of a non occupying occupier.

IPerhaps if Israel hadn't withdrawn 7/10 wouldn't have happened? Who knows.

Israel isn't blameless of course and i dont know if the blockade even achieved its objectives but Palestinians haven't exactly worked to turn gaza into a flourishing territory . Even the greenhouses left behind with the settlements were cleared were looted and destroyed when they could have been used for agriculture (they were bought by charities from the settlers for the use by Palestinians).

And then the disaster of electing hamas Who then went on a Fatah killing spree...

Israel doesn't control the Egyptian border. Egypt does.
Egypt hates hamas too but it makes its own decisions

You cannot let people willy nilly drill for water in an area short of water or the groundwater becomes salty.
I suspect this is at the bottom of the ban.
Surely Saudi, Lebanon, Egypt, Iran, Iraq could band together to build a nice desalination plant in Gaza /out at sea.

@StarTrek6 You’ve missed the point. It’s not about whether you should or shouldn’t drill for water, it’s about whether Israel is still exacting control over Gaza. Surely if Gaza was autonomous it would be able to make its own decisions on this point, like any other country.

If israel is the occupying power, then why is everyone so upset that Israel may invade. If they're occupying, surely they should go and occupy if they are an occupier? You can't have it both ways.

Sorry? Why are people so upset that Israel have killed 4500 of people, injured about 10000 and left god knows how many buried under rubble? 70% of the people Israel have killed are women and children. Hospitals are full of babies and children injured and they have no supplies to treat them. There are kids with 40% of their bodies covered in burns and there are no dressings for them. And you are asking why are people so upset?

@Gruntsandgroans because their occupation is going to get worse if they’re physically present as well as controlling everything from Israel.

A Minister has already indicated Israel intends to take even more land from Gaza for military purposes once this is over. They want their border controls to be based inside Gaza rather than inside Israel.