To think that water occupation is oppressive?

[Gardenowl]

Till now I had read on most of the threads that Palestinians rely on water supply from Israel because they have not bothered to build their own water supply, desalination plants etc. But then one of the posters on another thread posted a link to an Amnesty article about water occupation and I was surprised reading it. Most of the article is about West Bank not Gaza.

Isn't this extremely oppressive? And to take water from your land to supply to the neighbouring country? They must feel so helpless.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

"In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA."

"While restricting Palestinian access to water, Israel has effectively developed its own water infrastructure and water network in the West Bank for the use of its own citizens in Israel and in the settlements – that are illegal under international law. The Israeli state-owned water company Mekorot has systematically sunk wells and tapped springs in the occupied West Bank to supply its population, including those living in illegal settlements with water for domestic, agricultural and industrial purposes. While Mekorot sells some water to Palestinian water utilities, the amount is determined by the Israeli authorities. As a result of continuous restrictions, many Palestinian communities in the West Bank have no choice but to purchase water brought in by trucks at a much high prices ranging from 4 to 10 USD per cubic metre. In some of the poorest communities, water expenses can, at times, make up half of a family’s monthly income.
The Israeli authorities also restrict Palestinians’ access to water by denying or restricting their access to large parts of the West Bank. Many parts of the West Bank have been declared “closed military areas”, which Palestinians may not enter, because they are close to Israeli settlements, close to roads used by Israeli settlers, used for Israeli military training or protected nature reserves.
Israeli settlers living alongside Palestinians in the West Bank – in some cases just a few hundred meters away – face no such restrictions and water shortages, and can enjoy and capitalize on well-irrigated farmlands and swimming pools."

Have you not watched the video footage? It was literally released by Hamas to brag of what they'd done and the support they had.

I don't disagree that Palestinians have been treated awfully too. I'm just pointing outside both sides have cause to fear and resent each other and to want to defend themselves.

So you have to be realistic and not expect Israel to abide by International humanitarian rights? Because they are surrounded by some people who act badly? You have to expect them lock up women and children in a small strip of land and control everything they bring in? You have to expect them to arrest and torture children? To steal land? To shoot at farmers? I don't agree tbh. I think it is just another form of barbarianism accompanied by excuses. I don't think there is any higher moral ground here to be claimed by Israel.

Surely when you see stuff like that romantic notions of honourable freedom fighters have to be questioned?

You've got the cart before the horse there. Hamas are in power because the Palestinians have been living under brutal, violent oppression since they were removed from their homes and forced there. Much like the IRA, the PKK etc - a reasonable person can condemn the disgusting atrocities these groups commit while retaining an understanding of the appalling conditions that led people to feel they were the only option.

Well should we say oh well in that case you can totally understand hoards of men attacking a dance party in the dessert and mowing down kids with machine guns and kidnapping, raping and executing them? Should we say oh well then it's totally fine to murder whole families in their home?

Of course not to either scenario but that is what goes on.

So what do you suggest? So much hurt and resentment and deep wounds - just sitting in your armchair and blaming one side from your safe distance and peaceful nation achieves what? What's your realistic solution?

Any reports of that video have pointed out that the source is unverified. We know from past atrocities that producing 'evidence' of the enemy is certainly not heard of.

I am absolutely retaining that. I'm looking at the reality of the situation and depth of hurt and trauma all round. Most on here just seem to be enjoying saying how evil one side is but what does that achieve? How does this get resolved? Are one side supposed to just roll over and accept that lots of them will get murdered and slaughtered but eventually it might balance out so just open the border? Who would do that?

unheard of.

Why do you want to excuse the hideousness of what was done?

Now? I don't know. There is a whole generation of children that have known nothing but captivity, known nothing but oppression. Now they are indiscriminately killing entire families and destroying as much of Gaza as possible. By doing that Israel have put themselves in an awful spot. I would suggest they start small. Get rid of the illegal settlements, stop all control of the West Bank. Pay reparations to the children of Palestine. Stop controlling building materials at the borders so that Gaza can rebuild. Let Gaza have access to more than a tiny strip of sea. Small steps to build up trust amongst the youth whose childhoods have been marred by their collective punishments.

I'd be put of my mind with grief and baying for blood but I am not leading a government.

As an ordinary citizen I am not responsible for making decisions which may prevent or lead to a wider conflict which could kill many more citizens.

If I was leading a government I hope I would take advice from suitably qualified people so that I could avoid breaking multiple international laws, committing crimes against humanity and provoking my hostile neighbours.

No one on this post is excusing the hideousness of it.

Why we are confused is that all the people (including you) are now standing up and condemning these events and Hamas and rightly so but neither are you condemning Israel for what it did before nor what is it doing after. Casualties of Palestinian people are at least 20 times more than Israeli casualties in the last 15 years of this conflict.

We have to be very careful for saying that these atrocities by Hamas give justification to Israel for slaughtering people in Palestine. Because then by extension the atrocities and oppression done by Israel gives Hamas the justification for slaughtering people in Israel and neither is correct.

Casualties of Palestinian people are at least 20 times more than Israeli casualties in the last 15 years of this conflict. Does it justify Hamas killing Israeli civilians? No, it does not. In the same way Israel is not justified in bombing Palestianians.

But international community specially western nations never ever condemn Israel. That is inherently unfair and the reason that people are finally questioning the injustice.

A very good point. But I guess what we're seeing on both sides of this is that 'out of your mind' state leads you to elect governments who don't have that kind of balanced big picture approach.

Maybe you are just now 'finally' questioning this but it is nothing new for very many of us who have been campaigning about this for decades. Recent events though have forced me to afford a bit more complexity and nuance to the situation and to question what I would want were I on the Israeli side of the border.

Yeah and that’s why Arab Israeli’s have been getting arrested this week for criticising the government for the treatment of Gaza.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-police-crack-down-arab-citizens-expressing-solidarity-with-gaza-2023-10-20/

Israelis have been arrested for criticising their government too. As have Russians and however other many countries around the world.

The difference here is that Israel is a democratically elected government, Hamas are terrorists. I expect better from a democratically elected government.

At the moment the Netanyahu administration is committing genocide and playing Russian roulette with Israeli safety. He is not fit to hold office.

How? When Gaza was under a strict blockade by Israel the entire time? Israel did not withdraw so much as encircle Gaza with a land, sea and air blockade and then controlled and controls all water, electricity, food, goods, medicine, and the movement of people to/from Gaza.

They did build desalination plants…then Israel limited and finally shut off their supply of fuel to run them. Israel also limited the number of plants they could build, the number of repairs they could do by controlling all building permits and construction supplies.

All humanitarian aid and supplies of medicine go through Israel and if not approved by Israel do not reach the medical facilities in Gaza. Gazan doctors have long reported how they have to operate with reduced supplies and lower level of equipment than a usual hospital. In the West Bank, many women are denied access to hospital by being turned away at check points and ending up going into labour and losing infants by being forced to birth unassisted at home.

Gaza has a border with Egypt so how can it be occupied? Makes no sense.

Interesting that they can import sophisticated weaponry but they can't import medicine.
I would suggest that Gazans question their government's priorities because it sure isn't their health and well being

@Meshigenus You don’t understand how a country with a foreign border can be occupied?

In any event, the Egyptians have repeatedly said Israel is stopping humanitarian aid getting in through that border.

Hamas don’t have “sophisticated” weaponry!

“Homemade rockets. Modified AK-47s. Decades-old Soviet machine guns. Cheap, second-hand, and purloined weapons comprised Hamas’ deadly makeshift arsenal”
”CNN analyzed dozens of photos and videos of Hamas militants during the surprise assault to identify the weapons used to kill at least 1,200 people in Israel. Many of the weapons appeared to be altered Russian or Chinese firearms, presumedly left behind on the battlefield in decades past that eventually made their way into the hands of Hamas terrorists, experts say.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/hamas-weapons-invs

Repeal their Military Order from 1967 that gives them absolute control over all water in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.