Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

Youre right I’ll never understand the rejection of reason and compromise and threatening WWW3 if a group doesn’t get exactly what it wants in the case of religion this is nearly always power.

Getting exactly what it wants is the only way to peace. In anyone stands in their way they will be destroyed Is that what this poster meant by the religion of peace?

Until there is compromise children will continue to be slaughtered. as part of that compromise there needs to be respect for others religions or respect for none.

That's false. I'm not permitted by the censors to prove to anyone that it's false but they can look it up for themselves.

@Maatandosiris

'Getting exactly what it wants is the only way to peace.'

You see technically this is true. Submit and you'll have peace. Being a dhimmi, after all, is not a state of war. People can't get their heads around that I think.

There is a crater btw. It’s just “smaller” than what Israel is saying it should be and they compared it to the craters left by JDAMs (air strike) but who is to say it wasn’t ground based artillery fire?

Your point seems to be that IDF could not have done the strike, threrefore it cannot have been them.

My argument is that they are just as capable of the strike given their wide and varied arsenal as Hamas or PIJ and so cannot be ruled out.

There was independent verification of the white phosphorus use by the Human Rights Watch (HRW) and Amnesty International. In addition, British Intelligence spotted white phosphorous artillery shells sitting on pallets by the IDF artillery guns overlooking Gaza.

In addition, Israel similarly denied using white phosphorous on Gaza in 2009 and later admitted to it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

This has side by side comparisons of white phosphorus used in Gaza in 2009 and now in 2023
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/13/idf-white-phosphorus-oct-2023/

More like you cannot prove it is false, because it isn’t false
”takyeh.

In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqīyah, literally "prudence, fear")[1][2] is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice.[1][3][4][5]

No, HRW and AI are not experts in the verification of white phosphorus.

It's significant the UN said what it did. To date, there is no credible independent verification of white phosphorus bring used on civilians.

Past cases does not necessarily follow that Israel did so in 2023. Non-sequitur.

You see I always look to history as most of these things have happened before. The best comparison in recent history is probably Christendom. Islam seems to be going in the same religious developmental cycle.

if we look at the crusades which were essentially Christianity’s version of Jihad (with obvious differences regarding power seats of Christianity v Islam) there was an arrogant belief God was on your side. If you look at the Albegensian crusades for example (crusades against other Christians) looking back it was mainly about land and power - the people at the time might not have seen this as religion and life were so entangled. Looking back it was genocide. “Kill them all God will know his own” could equally be the cry of Hamas rather than a cry at the Battle of Beziers in 1209.

This is the same. We’ve seen it before. Hamas et al are Medieval by western standards as are its aims and tactics. This is why most people in the west find it hard to understand, the last time we went through similar was nearly 1000 years ago.

That doesn't prove your statement, nor will you be able to. As I said, anyone genuinely wanting to understand this is going to have to go find the information themselves. It's easily available though.

@Maatandosiris

It's true western countries are so far removed now from such motives that they can't get their heads around it. But think they'd have a better chance of understanding it if it were taught in schools, and if there wasn't widespread censorship. But there are political reasons why people are kept ignorant.

I don't agree with the thesis that any of these wars are for power/land rather than religious reasons because I think that's a false binary. Again it's a 21st century, post-Christian, materialist, western point of view that thinks those things are separable. As you say, religion and life were entangled. But the whole social structure, the in group vs outgroup, the culture, the laws, ownership concepts, ideas about power, those parts of life were equally entangled with religion. And people are motivated by their values, beliefs and worldviews (whether those derive from a religion or not) even to the detriment of their own power or access to land. People will literally die for their beliefs and it has nothing to do with power or wealth.

No, HRW and AI are not experts in the verification of white phosphorus.
HRW and AI used experts in their investigations and state as much in their reports.

It's significant the UN said what it did. To date, there is no credible independent verification of white phosphorus bring used on civilians.
I have done a few searches and cannot find any UN statement regarding white phosphorus having been used in the current Gaza conflict. Can you please link me to that?

No, even if Israel Defense Force used a less powerful missile, there would still be tell-tale signs such as a crater. You know, gravity.
You were wrong about there not being a crater- that is what IDF initially claimed so not your fault. But there is a crater.

Past cases does not necessarily follow that Israel did so in 2023. Non-sequitur.
Except that Israel was never held accountable for that war crime of using white phosphorus in their 2009 bombing of Gaza, so there is no deterrent to them doing so again. They denied it, it was investigated and proven true, and then nothing happened. Not even a slap on the wrist. This is a sort of encouragement to use it again.

It proves it. I would guess you cannot link your source because it’s to some islamaphobic extremist and thus proscribed website.

You gave up that quickly? What happened? You found things you didn't like so much out there so decided to move straight on to some passive aggressive name calling instead? So predictable, so tedious.

Gonna leave this here. A good watch for anyone actually interested in this understanding the key issues in this conflict.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo

@DownNative
AI report
https://citizenevidence.org/2023/10/13/israel-opt-identifying-the-israeli-armys-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-gaza/

With photos showing the presence of white phosphorus shells on pallets by the Howitzers overlooking Gaza. If you read the report, you will learn that their experts have verified at least one video capture of white phosphorus being used.

If half the houses in my street use solar does it mean that 50% of my streets electricity requirements are met by solar?

For that to be true it would mean that the 50% of houses are 100% reliant on solar.

The article says no such thing and I can't simplify it any further for you but I would be interested if you could direct me to information about bomb proof solar panels.

Honestly polly you are relentless aren't you? Give it a break and maybe go put the kettle on
We could all do with a brew seeing how tense things are

No, we are not so superior as that.
The invasion, massacre and colonisation of Ireland in the War of Three Kingdoms was all about killing Catholics so that Protestants could settle there.

Similar a century later with the Highland Clearances after the Jacobite rebellions. Catholic Scots were persecuted and deported to the Americas and Australia/New Zealand.

Our Colonists in Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand massacred and drove westwards the First Peoples for being nonChristian pagans and another race well into the 20th century.

We depopulated the Chagos islands so we could have an airbase in the south Pacific less than a century ago.

Exactly, that’s why I said it wouldn’t have been seen like that back then. But really all religion is about power, power over self, over others and over death. Religion was a framework much like science is now, it’s the lens through which the world is seen.

I think much of the Islamic world still has that interwoven world view which is outdated and therefore unfamiliar in the west as science and secular reason is really the world view framework in the West.

I think you’re confusing Crusades with sectarianism

I have solar panels and they support around one quarter of my energy needs.
In addition, to the fact that solar panels are not bomb proof, just the dust from the bombing would make solar panels inoperable. There have been more than enough bombs dropped on Gaza to knock out solar power panels for buildings. The bombing has been continuous too so no one is going to pop up to the roof to clean solar panels as the IDF might think they are Hamas with an RPG aimed at them and likely to just do an air strike on them.

And there we have it. This is why there's no point trying to reason or have any sort of conversation with you. I have clarified what I meant and that was not that there should be a war but you carry on

@Maatandosiris

The idea that religion is about power derives from Marx, whose ideology ironically was itself obsessed with power and demonstrates the limits of secular reason. I know you don't believe that your beliefs, for example, whatever they are, are simply about power of any kind. Power is one human motive, sure, but there are many, many others and religious beliefs, like all other belief systems, are inseparable from all of them.

I think you are thinking that only Crusades declared by a Pope “count” as religiously motivated armed conflicts by majority Christian nations. This is a very narrow and selective viewpoint to take that not surprisingly feeds the Eurosupremacist narrative.

A minute ago you wanted me to shut up. Make up your mind.