Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

Its experts that say it wasn't Israel and gave been on various news outlets showing why they believe it wasn't. Try watching one of them to see why they suggest it's a hamas mistake.

However you are so convinced it must be Israel you are blinded to what various experts on military explosives, rockets etc say. Hamas do make mistakes you know, or maybe it wasn't a mistake since the outcome was a mass of blame without waiting to find out facts.

Literally not been verified by anyone and retracted from US and Israel. Stop spreading fake news. Let families mourn without gaslighting the situation

In this instance we have two groups who have in the past lied. Who do we believe?

1. Hamas who are government in Gaza
2. Israel who sent two warnings to the same hospital to evacuate prior to it being bombed, and who have continued to bomb like crazy after that

If the Israeli government are saying the truth then their continuous bombardment and aggression after the hospital incident is not really helping them is it

You assume that I haven't read any of it. There are many experts who also say the evidence is inconclusive
The supposed intercepted phonecall has not been verified by a single independent credible agency

Well, your last paragraph simply is explained by the reality most people form first impressions easily through emotional responses to what they perceive is happening.

Perception is not the same thing as reality.

People also don't really understand the Non-sequitur Fallacy too. If most did, they'd think more carefully.

it is unconfirmed and will be difficult to confirm but if you look at the evidence being

1. The audio footage released by israel of hamas fighters has been deemed fake by multiple independent sources (wrong dialect, tone etc. its like releasing a recording of a welsh man and convincing the world he’s scott)

1. Israel have attacked hospitals and schools before, the same hospital has been hit twice before with less casualties, it was only over night when the back lash was received Israel decided to release a statement saying it wqsnt them.

1. Israel has a track record of lies and spinning propaganda (denying murder of journalists then later admitting).

Theres lots of other considerations about proposed locations, tweets and palestine’s ability to have weapons that can cause such damage but these move into more ambigious arguments - the facts speak for themselves albeit we will never be able to fully know.

Let's not forget that although this hospital made mainstream news there has been other hospitals targeted by Israeli strikes during this war.

It’s like you are ignoring everything that is being said snd just carrying on with your own narrative irrespective,

people are saying many weapons experts (I assume you’re not one) have stated the site of the hospital bombing has no hallmarks of an Israeli rocket attack, people are saying that 1 in 10 of Hamas rockets fall short. God knows what the statistics are like for smaller terrorist groups.

People are saying that the UN have documented evidence of Hamas using hospitals and schools to store weapons.

No one is denying that in a war people are suffering on all sides, that is why war is so terrible.

What people have been saying is that Israel faces a very real threat, this is a threat that Jews have faced for millennia. There’s no room for compromise from these terrorist groups. When I mentioned the areas sacred to the three main religions should come under impartial international control You yourself said that creating this safe zone would lead to the Muslim world banding together to declare world war 3.

it’s been pointed out repeatedly the level of support these terrorist groups, one of which thinks burning children alive is fine (as long as they’re Jews) receive in Palestine. Yet you can’t seem to see why Israel has reacted how it has.

if anyone is looking through rose tinted spectacles it’s you. You are the one stating that a building is non- negotiable to the extent many would feel it justified world war 3.

Hamas, similar groups and their supporters need to be removed. Once this is done peace needs to be negotiated. As part of this no threats of world war three will be tolerated. No religion should have this as a resource, it’s disgusting and once again world peace is being threatened by anti semitism

I will end our dialogue here as we both stay firm on our own stances

I pray if you have any family in Israel that they stay safe.
And I pray for the day the bloodshed ends

Again, the Non-sequitur Fallacy at work. It doesn't follow.

I wasn't joking when I said most people don't really understand the Non-sequitur Fallacy.

Those who claim Hamas et al don't have the capability to damage buildings forgot about the Ashkelon children’s hospital being hit by Hamas. Or don't know their arsenal.

While they may do so. Most people also forget that Israel has actually targeted other hospitals in the Gaza Strip. Do you deny that?

Similarly, IDF also have more than one type of artillery shell, bomb or rocket in their arsenal. So the argument it can’t be IDF because their JDAM shells leave bigger craters is patently ridiculous. They are far better equipped than Hamas with a wider array of munitions at their disposal. These are all being used on Gaza as the photos and videos of journalists at the Israeli artillery emplacements have proven. This includes footage of white phosphorus shells and dumb rockets as well as the JDAMs.

@DownNative "Hamas has a very long history of lying."
Maybe we should look at the meaning/origin of "taqiyya" in Islam.

According to the authoritative Arabic text, Al-Taqiyya Fi Al-Islam: "Taqiyya [deception] is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it. We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream...Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era."

A list of hospitals in the gaza strip that have so far been ordered to evacuate. Many of the doctors have said this would be similar to a death order for their patients and have refused to do so

In total, at least 22 hospitals have received Israeli threats since 7 October. Here is a list of hospitals in areas ordered by the military to clear out, in addition to two hospitals that received similar warnings in the south.

• Kamal Adwan Hospital - northern Gaza
• Al-Awda Hospital - northern Gaza
• Indonesian Hospital - northern Gaza
• Balsam Hospital - northern Gaza
• Karama Hospital Gaza - northern Gaza
• Al Shifa Hospital - Gaza City
• Al-Quds Hospital - Gaza City
• Jordanian Field Hospital in Gaza - Gaza City
• El-Dorra Paediatric Hospital - Gaza City
• Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital - Gaza City
• Al-Wafa Medical Centre - Gaza City
• Al-Ahli al-Arabi Baptist Hospital - Gaza City
• Public Aid Hospital - Gaza City
• Al Rantissi - Alnasr Hospital for Children - Gaza City
• St John Eye Hospital - Gaza City
• Patient Friend's Benevolent Society - Gaza City
• Assahaba Medical Complex Society - Gaza City
• Gaza Eye Hospital - Gaza City
• Jenin Hospital - Gaza City
• Gaza Psychiatric Hospital - Gaza City
• European Gaza Hospital - southern Gaza
• Kuwait Speciality Hospital - southern Gaza

I think you've just proven my point though....if half of the businesses etc..are solar then they aren't relying on Israel are they?. They have the capability of generating their own.

Which website did you copy and paste that from?

Majority of Muslims on this forum and outside will have no idea what that even is

As you know lying is forbidden in Islam and many other religions. But as always there are certain exceptions where one can lie. And that is only in extreme cases where one fears for their life.

Yea I stand firm in my stance that we cannot allow ourselves to be bullied into submission by threats of WW3.

I hope all innocent people remain safe. Once again Religion fucks up the world (or rather how people use that religion to justify terrorism)

No, even if Israel Defense Force used a less powerful missile, there would still be tell-tale signs such as a crater. You know, gravity.

The damage seen in the car park looks more consistent with a PIJ rocket.

Oh, and no independent verification of white phosphorus being used. See UN.

Attached.

@Parkingt111 It comes from the Middle East Forum

"As you know lying is forbidden in Islam"

No, I don't know that.

"Asma bint Yazid narrated that the Messenger of Allah said:
“It is not lawful to lie except in three cases: Something the man tells his wife to please her, to lie during war, and to lie in order to bring peace between the people.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1938)"

Before you post things like this out of context do a little research and you will realise that although lying is forbidden in Islam and Judaism both religion allow it under certain circumstances and both religions actually have very similar beliefs on it
For example both say that a lie can be said to spare someone's feelings if it will cause no harm. Or in order to save a life

Is it permitted to tell a white lie? If a murderer is at large, brandishing a gun, and his intended victim takes refuge in your house, are you obligated to tell the truth when the would-be killer knocks on your door and asks, “Is he here”? Immanuel Kant, the greatest philosopher of modern times, said Yes. We should always tell the truth, whatever the circumstances and consequences. Judaism says No. Not only is it permitted to tell a white lie to save a life. It is also permitted to do so for the sake of peace.

So it has been identified by the UN where Hamas hide their weapons (inc hospitals) Israel warn the hospitals that they need to destroy them to destroy Hamas’s capability to attack Israel in their stated objective to destroy Israel.

where’s the Red Crescent? Maybe the people of Palestine need to rise up against Hamas to hand these weapons over to Israel? Then the hospitals wouldn’t be targets.

Did Hamas warn the music festival or Kibbutz before they launched their rampage of terror???

'A: Maybe that area needs to be under international control

B 'In all honesty i think that would probably be a catalyst for world war 3
Every single Muslim country would put aside any differences they have and unite against it

Masjid al Aqsa is non negotiable...I pray for the day the bloodshed ends'

This exchange is what most westerners don't understand about this conflict. Not everyone means the same thing when they say they want peace.

@Parkingt111 "although lying is forbidden in Islam and Judaism both religion allow it under certain circumstances and both religions actually have very similar beliefs on it"

Well then, if you are saying that both sides can be 'economical with the truth', there isn't any point discussing anything with either side, is there?.

No wonder there isn't any peace in the ME 🙄

That’s the not the meaning or origin, it is an exception from the religious duty to be truthful in all things when you are being persecuted by non Muslims and it only permits you to lie to them about being a Muslim to protect yourself.