Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

Full link to the article published just a little while ago

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-as-protesters-throwing-stones-are-shot-by-israeli-snipers-this-is-part-of-normal-life-for-the-west-bank-12987221

and The BBC is funded by the British government 🤷🏼‍♀️

You seem to be trying to pretend israel bombed that hospital. As you know all evidence points to the blast being caused by an Islamic jihad rocket. The crater is much too small and damage far too insignificant for a bomb dropped from a plane. There is also video footage of the rocket. So even if you really hate Israelis, it’s not at all plausible to accuse them of the attack.

Further, Hamas immediate claim that 500 people died seems extremely questionable.

Israel is at war due to a vicious attack. Against incompetent, bloodthirsty terrorists.

Sadly there is also terrorism and violence in the West Bank. And indeed in southern Lebanon.

Hamas won the election and polls do seem to show they are popular in both Gaza and the West Bank (although the West Bank is Fatah controlled, they are not particularly popular. That doesn’t mean everyone of course, but considering how extreme they are, they do seem to have fairly widespread support which is very worrying. certainly anti semitism is off the scale in Gaza and the atrocities in the south of Israel are unimaginable.

@Parkingt111 Use of live rounds is a new development due to the fact Israel is now on a war footing.

Usually it was rubber bullets and tear gas to disperse rioters.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-police-eye-changes-to-rules-for-use-of-live-fire-against-rioters-in-wartime/

People saying Palestinians do nit support ganas , that’s not what polls say

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

let’s also not forget they celebrated Hamas attack and killing of Jews . Not to mention they openly celebrated 9/11 , the london bombings and the Paris terror attacks . So yes I believe many are innocent but the majority will be women and children . Hamas has support in Palestine .
And no I do not believe innocent people should be targeted, ever . But I also don’t have rosy specs and think all Palestinians are good , some are indeed terrorists or terrorist sympathisers

What I find shocking is that while supporting Palestinians nobody is speaking of women and children rights .
women have little rights in Palestine , lots die from having children non stop , children die from malnutrition , yet men demand women to have lots of children . Why is nobody questioning this ? Why is everyone so happy to just support this sort of society ? This is not normal or should be supported in any way . Questions should I be asked , why Palestinians have so many children , why are women respected so little .
Everyone is so busy trying to defend the right of Palestine to become a lawful country but I hat sort of country would palestine be if they had no embargo .

a) between 1948 and 1967, Egypt and JOrdan controlled the gaza strip and the WB respectively. Not Israel. There was no occupation. Was there peace? (no, there was a boycott of Israel, terrorism and war). Why was no Palestinian state establihsed during that time?
b) There are no settlements in Gaza, Israel withdrew. There are no Israelis in Gaza (other than those kidnapped there). There is no occupation of Gaza and there is, indeed, a border crossing with Egypt.

I am totally against the occupation of the WB. I think it's also destroying Israel. But one thing is for sure and certain, what Hamas has done has demonstrated to israelis what awaits them if they withdraw from the WB. It has set back the Palestinian cause by decades.

Well that’s a well balanced approach!!! The area is important to 3 world religions. The last religion chronologically who joined the mix was Islam.

Why do you think Islam has a greater claim to the area.

Ax I said from a secular perspective new religions usually appropriate sacred sites and practices of other religions in order to mark their territory look at Christmas in the Christian calendar. Looking at it from an historical perspective this would have been why Muslims built a mosque on Temple Mount as a show of power and dominance over existing religions.

As the area is sacred to 3 major religions it needs to be shared. Muslims need to accept it’s a sacred site for Jews a Christian’s and vice versa. Anything less is an act of intolerance. Therefore if it can’t be agreed between the religions it would appear reasonable to put the area under the control of third parties.

If none of the religions can tolerate this maybe the entire area should’ve be razed to the ground and access denied to all if it is causing people to die it’s not a holy site is it? Religion is supposed to be for good.

When the Temple Mount and the Western Wall were under Jordanian control between 1948 and 1967, how many Jews were allowed to pray there?
(answer is zero, they were totally and completed barred entry to their HOLIEST site)
Who controls the temple mount now?
(answer - the Jordan appointed Jerusalem Islamic Waqf which Israel left in charge)
Why would it be so hard for Muslims to accept Israeli sovereignty? It's not even your holiest site, that's in Saudi Arabia. As long as you can worship there in peace, why do you need to rule?

@Bakensmile As you’re probably aware by now all evidence does not point to an Israeli ticket many weapons experts (you are most likely not one) are stating, having seen pictures from the site, it usvery unlikely to have been an Israeli rocket

@Tryingmybestadhd "women have little rights in Palestine , lots die from having children non stop , children die from malnutrition , yet men demand women to have lots of children . Why is nobody questioning this ? Why is everyone so happy to just support this sort of society ? This is not normal or should be supported in any way . Questions should I be asked , why Palestinians have so many children , why are women respected so little ."

When I raised this some pages ago - I questioned why the government didn't have a contraceptive programme - I had to duck to avoid a hail of brickbats.🙄

Whilst you might believe they bombed it, a growing number of experts seem to believe that hamas rockets levelled the carpark ....using satellite information and observations and facts about how damage occurs from which direction etcetera.

Typical mumsnet user knows better of course

In all honesty i think that would probably be a catalyst for world war 3
Every single Muslim country would put aside any differences they have and unite against it
Masjid al Aqsa is non negotiable

You're not painting Muslim countries in a very good light with that statement.

That's why the population of Gaza has 50% children. Poor women have no choice but to keep producing, no one cares about them

Israel

Correct.

When Hamas formed in 1987, they had minimal support from Palestinians. But in 2021, support for Hamas dramatically increased as AP News reported:

apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

In 2022, respected Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) carried out a survey looking at Palestinian support for armed groups. Main takeaways below:

• 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank

• in Gaza, 84% of respondents supported concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. This is HIGHER than in the West Bank where 65% supported the idea.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/924

And:

"....there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though this is fewer than those who support Fatah (64%).

But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents."

www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,who%20support%20Fatah%20(64%25).

So, the support for Hamas, Lion's Den and other Palestinian armed groups is there from the Palestinian population. A minority do not support them.

Important to note that Abbas' Fatah party also has an armed wing - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. So, there is a LOT of Palestinian support for terrorist groups overall.

So, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist groups.

Fatah party also has a terrorist group of its own - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. See badge.

Thank you for that. It's still horrendous. Reports that two of the teenagers have died

There's a lot of people pushing on here that the only narrative that is acceptable regarding the hospital is that Israel did not do it. I'm sorry but just because Israel 'said' it didn't does not make it concrete proof and there are many countries who dispute their so called proof.
As said before but has not been acknowledged by the pro israeli supporters on here that it has been proven that in the immediate aftermath of a controversy Israel HAVE LIED. like the murder of the journalist Shireen Abu Akleh.

I for one do not believe the Israeli narrative at all. Not least whilst they continue to bomb and kill civilians without any pause. There are currently 600 children stuck under rubble in Gaza. Rescue efforts are being hindered by continuous bombing.

Hamas has blood on its hands no doubt. But please don't be under the Illusion that Israel is peachy clean. The world will not forget the genocide of Gaza.

What point are you trying to make? What source? What context?

Look we had a nice dialogue so il give you the benefit of the doubt that you misunderstood me.

You asked for my opinion on it and I told you honestly I do think it would be the pre cursor of a greater war. I wasn't saying that I think there should be another war but that it would be likely to happen

By the same token, Hamas has a very long history of lying.

So, why were so many people keen to take the word of an international terrorist organisation under the name "Gaza Health Ministry"?

Quite.

Let's not descend into Non-sequitur and Circular Reasoning fallacies.

I didn't say that Hamas does not lie. Most people on here will not find that difficult to believe. However the pro Israeli supporters have a tough time acknowledging that the Israeli government do lie and it has been proven so