To TTC or not to TTC, that is one of the many questions...

[YorkshireTeaDrinker]

Ok fellow ditherers, as we have filled up one thread (and still not made too many firm decisions) here's another one for us to continue to procrastinate and worry on.

Here's to more monitoring of relative green and redness, mutual support and occassional chivving, discussion of everything baby or not baby related, and perhaps even our first BFP...?

YTD, I am with you on the nosey interwebbing Usually in the nicest possible ways, of course...

ytd your job does sound interesting, it sounds very problem solving which is cool. and yay to that maternity package. i think lots of things will be changing post election, whoever gets in, with reductions across the shop.

thanks to both of you for the outfit compliments.

confused so glad that you explained what a dog kong was! filthy
re your friend, yes I know it is easy for us to say_ i will be surprised if my child ever leaves the house with two socks that match - i can promise you 9/10 DH and I don't, although it has improved since I bought a sad peggy thing from lakeland.

no, thankfully not expanding elsewhere yet it seems, I am actually losing weight, I think I mentioned at the start that I really needed to and did loose a bit before the BFP. Now I am back to regular healthy eating having joined SW rather than the fairly diet I was on before I am losing again, though first week I did loose 4.5lb but thats normal in the first week so expect it to settle down. Just hope it means that the midwife will give me less of a bol**ing when I see her. at least I am making the effort.

Right ladies off to bed, this is the latest i've been up in a while and tomorrow is the earliest i will have to get up in ages. Gonna try and get a 7.15 train. night night

Good luck tomorrow LQ!

interesting article. here
read the article confused posted. i agree with it but the writer is a bit well, extreme in her views.
e.g. giving up a seat on the train to a pregnant woman. yes, it was voluntary. but it doesn't mean i shouldn't give her my seat if she's in discomfort! it's hardly equivalent to, say, for lack of better example, someone not being able to stand because they had boob enhancement surgery to 45GGGG and therefore need to sit else they'd keel over!
though yes, people always assume a woman has got to want to have a child. or that having a child will be the best thing she ever does. god save us from the cult of the self righteous mothers.
i do think it's important to acknowledge though that they are doing a difficult, sometimes thankless, job, and they deserve to be cut some slack. particularly the ones juggling many balls all at once.

I agree that Polly Vernon is somewhat over the top about it. And the bit about the tube seat - I'd offer it through good manners, no more and no less.

I cannot bear the assumption that I want a child though, or the assumption that I'd regret it if I didn't. While I am slightly concerned, to varying degrees, that I would indeed wish I had once time has run out it does piss me off to have people say as much. Makes me want to rush off and cram contreceptives down my throat.

LQ how was a) the Northern Line and b) work?

Any news from anyone else...?

Madness.
DH just rang. Some woman, who had been sat outside the house in a car for over an hour, accosted him when he was going back into the house.

Turns out she was the woman who saw it on Saturday. DH said she was a neurotic mess - she was panicking about the noise and safety. Then, she got into a state about the roof - we haven't had it recently checked you see, then she was in a panic about the neighbours as we 'have no control' over who moves into the house that used to be a pub on the corner.
Then, THEN, she explained that she had bought a flat near her daughter in a couple of miles away but then she and her daughter fell out and she needs to move. The other reason she apparently wants to move is because she 'can't stand the noise' of living between two flats even though she's only been in her current place three months. She then added that 'if I don't get it right this time I'll kill myself!'
She had another look around (not great as it's a bit of a mess due to stripping beds etc) and then asked if she could come back one evening and sit in the front room for an hour to check the noise isn't too much.

yikes. she sounds a bit disturbed like she's had to deal with a really horrible set of circumstances lately.
feel bad for her moving to be near her daughter and then having a fight though.

hmm. food for thought. find this website a bit trashy personally.
article on jezebel

i don't personally wonder about the 'why'. i know what's keeping me. and maybe this is a trend but am not happy being slotted into a neat box that says "doesn't want a baby=career climbing cow".
my question is more the 'when' and 'how'.

Eek, while I feel sorry for her, confused, I think I might steer clear of her as a buyer - it can be a long process and she sounds a bit erratic, albeit possibly through no fault of her own - she might pull out or go back on agreements over something small or unreasonable. I have never been unduly troubled by noisy neighbours, but am prepared to believe it can send you a bit crazy and be quite distressing. On the other hand, she does sound unduly anxious and demanding - I can see why she might want to be in the house in the evening to see what the neighbours are like but I don't think any seller really has to agree to this, it's not exactly the done thing, is it? She can hang around in the evening outside for a bit and she'd surely hear the noise if it was too bad?

I think you should insist that she arrange all future viewings through the agent, preferably with them present - much more of this and it will start to sound like she's harassing you.

Well done for losing weight, lq! I'm using the IVF as an excuse to eat comfort foods at the moment but really shouldn't be - won't help my state of mind or physical well being. Still, mended my bike at hte weekend so at least won't be quite as sedentary as I have been for the last couple of weeks. Hope you're feeling less tired - though I guess that might take a few weeks. And that work is ok. How about you, YTD - hope you're feeling a bit better and less nauseous too.

Thinking abuot the Polly Vernon articles and the one Seagreen linked to. Food for thought indeed. I'm glad, on balance, that I've had the years I've had with my DH just the two of us, and I think it's made us a stronger couple (though perhaps that hasn't been tested yet!). And if I'd got pregnant with my previous boyf that would have been a disaster long term. He was a nice guy, but we weren't well suited in some key ways. So very grateful for birth control in general! I may be cursing it in 10 years time if things don't work out iwth the IVF, of course. But at the moment it feels easier for me than for some as I haven't ever felt the physical desire or deep-seated need for a child.

Confused I agree with LST re the highly strung potential buyer. She soulds like see could be really difficult, so if she does make an offer make sure you don't accept it unless its a really good one and make all communication go via the estate agent and solicitors - that's what they are for!

Evening all

Missed out on posting last night as after the 1st day back at work the tiredness was un-freaking-believable. Went to bed at 530 got up at 10 feeling like a zombie, had some cereal and back to bed until 6am this morning. Today's sickness has been really bad as well, i actually worked out of another office today so that I could drive to work rather than get the train & tube, by the time I left the house I was just literally heaving every step (sorry TMI and if your eating your dinner!)

Finally stopped feeling sick at 2pmish today. Celebrating the fact that I don't feel sick now!
Going back to work has been ok other than that, clearly other people haven't been told that I am dropping the project so need to speak to my boss about that - as soon as i can pin him down that is.

How is everyone else?

confused that lady sounds like a bit of a nightmare. agree with the others about handling her with caution and using your agent and solicitors.

seagreen totally totally agree with your views about people who seem to think that if you do not have a child that how can you possibly be complete. I seem to remember someone once saying to me, "yes of course you must wait until you are ready, but if you wait too long then you might decide that having a baby is not for you and you will have got used to your life." My thoughts were 'and yes, then I wouldn't have one would I?!" Weird. Surely better to have a child when you know you really want one than get pregnant for the sake of not missing out!

Evening! Am late posting as I have been off to Burtons to pick up some morning suits. DH is an usher and the groom to be is a good friend. The bride? Lets just say she has improved dramatically on her recent behaviour and I am able to remember why I liked her. Bit of a tricky moment when DH and Groom to be came out the changing rooms and asked me what I thought - they are in black tailcoats and my first thought was 'undertakers' - luckily I only almost said it!

The crazy woman who looked at the house - ladies, I hear you! While we want to sell the house I don't want to make it any more of a palaver than it has to be, and this woman doesn't bode well in that respect. The estate agent called me today and asked if we could do a last minute viewing at 6.15 (mad rush of tidying but do-able) and I told him about yesterday, as I was also wondering if it was the same woman (hence the 'urgency' - she strikes me as someone who is always in a flap.) It was actually another couple who were coming to view, but I mentioned yesterday's lady to the agent who laughed. Apparently this woman has moved EIGHT TIMES IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS! She always moves and then something ges to her, and so she moves again. I said to the agent that she sounds best avoided and he said that no, on the contrary, she is always in a rush to move and has never backed out of a deal so far

Getting pregnant for the sake of not missing out is utterly ludicrous! However, perhaps not in so many words, but I have had similar said to me. The way I feel now, at 35 I'd like to emphasise, is that it isn't the end of the world not to have one and, in fact, free's you up to do approx 294838457735628829 other things far more easily and cheaply.

However, the ditherer within me says, never say never! [wink}

Hi everyone,

I'm relatively new to MN and I was just erm wondering if I could join this thread as it seems friendly in here erm... doesn't matter if not I'll just lurk anyway TBH, I've been in some of the other long running discussions and been terrified unsure about posting as they seemed a bit strong.

I'm still not exactly sure if I want to have a baby or if I'd be happy / disappointed if I was / wasn't although have never been blessed with decisivesness in any aspect of my life. Me and DP discussed it once after my sister had her baby last year and now we're "trying" apparently. He's even told his mum! I'm not getting any younger though as everyone keeps pointing out. I'm only 34 physically (mentally I'm about 23 I'd guess).

Anyway just wanted to drop in and say hi!

Oddy x

Welcome Oddy!
You sound as if you may have found your spiritual home! I have exactly the same thoughts as yourself about whether to go for it or not, and it changes on a daily basis. (And I have been MNing with everyone on the subject for the past 9 months and still no wiser, although some on this thread are more decisive than others - not everyone's as crap as me!)

How long have you been 'trying'?

Hi there, Oddy

you're definitely in the right place - we're all (or almost all) having these feelings (I'm still having them and am currently going through IVF, if you haven't read back on the thread - which is particularly bananas indecisive!).

34 feels quite young to me (I'm just about to turn 38), don't worry. Mind you, I haven't had much luck (if that's what it is...) at conceiving so obviously not as young as I think I am!

Presumably you are ok with the idea of a baby, or you wouldn't be trying or even 'trying'? Don't be railroaded into it, will you - it's all very well for your DP (and his mum!) but he'll end up doing a fraction of the work you will if you do have a baby. I complain about my DH's lack of enthuasiasm for kids, but I think I might feel even worse in a way if he was putting loads of pressure on me to do it. I'm not saying that's what's happening with you, obviously - I'm sure it's not - but I just know some people who get this from their partners and then the same partners are really rubbish when the child comes along. (At least I know my DH will probably be rubbish and have - after a fashion - accepted this! )

Anyway, I'm sure that's not the issue. Good luck with deciding and/or succeeding, whichever comes first!

Speaking of DHs being rubbish, girls, I read an AIBU thread this morning about family income and who pays for what. There were a lot of militant mom types shouting about joint income and "it's his kid too" and suggesting the OP leave her DP. I didn't say anything but I was thinking that my DH definitely doesn't want children, but will probably give in eventually if I do. But I'm sure he will see them as my responsibility and expect me to be the one to make the sacrifices if he does give in, and part of me thinks that wouldn't be so unreasonable of him. It's a different matter if you both want kids and you don't have to negotiate. What do you guys think?

Now that is a tricky one.

If your DH has never wanted children but ends up with them anyway, they are still, whether he wanted them or not, both of yours. If he is that against the idea of parenthood in an ideal world you would have either laid your cards out and discussed it till blue in the face before TTC or he would have taken matters into his own hands and worn a johnny or had the snip!

However, I think (but may be talking our my arse) that the mother tends to do far more of the chores / make more of the sacrifices and so on anyway out of the two parents. On a brighter note, a lot of the men who I've seen become fathers have been utterly smitten once the babies have arrived.

I also wonder if you would have to negotiate when you become parents regardless of whether you both wanted children or not, maybe you negotiate more if he didn't want them...?

Hi everyone,

Couldn't post last night as the broadband wasn't working but thought I'd drop in this morning before work and say thanks for letting me join your gang . Just so you're all up to speed, I'll give you a potted history of where I am at the moment...that sounded a bit Dragons Den didn't it, anyway...

... I spent all my teens and 20's having no interest in kids whatsoever as I found raving and general debauchery much more to my taste. Then my younger sister had a baby last year (shock, horror although she IS 31!) which sent me into an emotional tailspin and started my broody-o-meter madly ticking. Me and DP then had a serious grown up discussion about children and decided that I'd have my coil removed and we'd see what happened.

At this point I though "sh*t" and put off having my coil removed until I absolutely had to. Broody-o-meter cranked up again as I thought I'd conceive straight away (I couldn't get away with anything in the past, but that's another story) but I spent the 1st half of the 1st month excited about being pregnant and then the 2nd half terrified that I was. This pattern has continued in month 2 (and 3, despite madly symptom spotting I got my period this morning). I'm not particularly sad or anything I just mainly think I can have a bottle glass of wine tonight while looking at holiday brochures which right now seems infinitely preferable to having a glass of plain water and worrying about if Greenpeace would tow me back out to see if I lay on the beach in 3 months. TBH we're rather casual about this TTC business though, no charts, thermometers, cervix fiddling or "come home I'm ovulating" phone calls to DP's work...yet .

So that's where I am at the moment. I think I qualify as a fully paid up member of ditherers united as I'm still dithering while half-heartedly TTC. If I could make any kind of decision I believe I would be dangerous

Oddy x

Confused I suppose that whenever you have a situation where one or other partner seriously considers not having children at all, that must prompt conversations that the majority of couples avoid because they are both fully on board and have no need to discuss the practical implications to the nth degree. So thrashing out an agreement could turn out to be a positive. At least you have more realistic expectations.

Oddy you seem to have redefined dithering! I'm not saying you shouldn't, and I know you're not the only ditherer in this thread who's "trying" - I'm just tickled by the idea of dithering and TTC at the same time. No doubt I'll be dithering whilst TTC with the best of them, once my turn comes! lol.

I'd say welcome to the thread, but it's not my thread - so that would be like saying "make yourself at home" to another guest in someone elses house... pours wine and offers a glass instead

Confused, I am sure that from the agent?s point of view this lady lays golden eggs!
Oddy, welcome!
All- what is with the general attitude some people have- the conversation goes as follows: ?So, do you have kids?? (from a 27 year old man ? probably irritating colleague type- whose hapless wife has popped out one or two already).
You say ?No? with a smile, probably pop in a ?not yet? if your clock is ticking particularly loudly that day and you don?t want to sound like your ovaries have given up.
?Ohhhh? (conveying a world of meaning) rather than a cheerful ?oh ok? with a smile. Once I even got a ?Ohh, you guys haven?t grown up yet then? (with patronising smile) from a chap I hardly knew, the first time I met him. WTF !! Excuse me!!! If growing up means acquiring a halo of sanctimoniousness then I really don?t want to grow up. I?ll take all sorts of sh*t from the people who know me or care about me, but to be talked at by some random pipsqueak who thinks he?s got the Holy Grail because he has a child is too much. To be fair, it?s not right to presume that everyone who has kids and asks you whether you do, is being patronising. In fact, most aren?t. And it?s true that parenting is challenging and life changing and a learning experience.
But that small halo-ed minority get my goat.

I very rarely get asked that to be honest, someone I was speaking to on the telephone the other day asked me "do you have any children yourself?" and I spontaneously laughed out loud as though the question was just ridiculous - and then I immediately thought "oh my god why am I laughing? That's a perfectly reasonable question! This woman must think I'm mental/hate children!"

So apparently, subconsciously, I don't even think of myself as someone who might have a child!

so my general defence mechanism most times when people ask "and do you have kids" is "definitely not!"- that way, no one feels the need to feel bad for me/ lecture me/ feel ill at ease. they can move on, because they know i'm v comfortable with my childless situation!
though i probably come across as a child hater to some people.. which, come to think of it, i don't really LIKE children as a whole all that much.. i'm just waiting to have one of my own, is all!

i mean, i like them - the same way as i like a nice painting- i like them for what they are, from a reasonable distance, but i don't feel the need to necessarily devote my time to them! they do grate on the nerves after a while.. i don't think i could spend say 7 days looking after a child without feeling the need to get away with a good book in a corner somewhere unless it was my own child (am guessing)!
i suppose one's own/ one's near and dear children evoke a better response. we're probably biologically wired that way..
fairly red right now as you can see!

It's been a funny few weeks really (possibly I've been spending too long on this thread), first there were the anti-baby articles that people linked to, which made me super red, then the sensible analysis of them on here, which made me a bit less red again, but then I read a thread about the silly cost of childcare (super red again), then managed to rationalise it and reminded myself that I actually could afford it (slightly less red again), got drunk on a night out and confessed feelings of redness to militant-anti-baby DH, then woke up next day panicked into a state of vibrant greenness! Which has since worn off a bit, but not so much that I didn't sneak into Mothercare yesterday and look at car seats and play pens... And so it goes on!

Hi all

Things have been quite quiet on here of late - hope everyone's ok. I'm not too bad, though now getting the horrible headaches and sleeplessness that people on IVF message boards have talked about with the down regging (first stage that I'm just coming to the end of) so haven't been entirely chirpy - and look like death warmed up! Unfortunately I got a rather short haircut just before the symptoms kicked in as well so I look like I'm recovering from something terrible at the moment. Am visiting my nephew and trying not to scare him!

I'm really identifying with the awkwardness over when people ask about children. It depends on how well I know them and how I feel as to whether I say 'Not yet' or just try to say 'no' in a firm but cheerful way! I think 'definitely not' would be a bit disingenuous at this stage! Mind you, I felt like I'd had it easy when my sister was talking about a friend of hers who is a really high-flying fund manager in the City - apparently she told some of her clients that she was getting married and they started asking her, immediately, about when she was going to have kids and who would manage their funds when she did. Absolutely outrageous - and she happens not to want kids. If her employer had said something like this, of course they'd be liable for all sorts of legal action but of course she can't do anything about her clients (except smile sweetly and reassure them). Makes me glad that my work are basically very supportive (just unfortunately about 90 miles away from where I live...).

Do think that is absolutely terrible, Seagreen - surprised you didn't wallop him right there and then, sanctimonious little twerp. That makes me feel pretty red and militantly child-free. It's the two mantras of the self-righteous parent (mercifully, as you say, very few and far between) - that those without children are a) not grown-up and b) as re. a post of confused's recently, selfish. Grrr. I've always thought the 'not grown up' thing was basically veiled jealousy - I as a parent have to do all these so-called grown-up things that are hard and dull and curb my desires, so I'll play down the attractiveness of the other condition. I have no doubt one does assume new responsibilities and grow in certain ways as a person with kids, and I think I will probably 'grow up' in lots of ways, but you can grow in other ways and through other experiences too. [OK, rant over!]

Wow, those are some swings, Amanda - I've never quite got to the stage of looking at car seats etc. but playing with my nephew has induced slight greenness (about time, some might say!).

OK, better go - head pounding again - hoping a shower will help. Hope you're all doing ok (ok there lq and YTD?). Any news on the house, confused? xx