Why is a life without kids still not promoted as a route to happiness?

[OptimismvsRealism]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/15/parents-are-anxious-lonely-overwhelmingly-stressed-and-their-crisis-affects-everyone

Parenthood looks awful. Certainly worse than it needs to be in modern times but fundamentally wretched in many ways. An abandonment of the self.

Shouldn't we be telling young people not to have kids unless they really want to? Like we'd advise with anything so hard.

Maybe look up the words, contradiction and sweeping generalisations.Someone who is unable, to understand this, isn’t able to make sense.

Maybe you should. You are making no sense.

Wes, just let it go.People, aren’t always going to agree with you.

🤣 ok.

Creating another human being to satisfy your own need is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion.

Having children is selfish ?

Raising children is almost always a net liability to parents, even if their children end up providing support in old age. Is all that sacrifice selfish?

In addition, having offspring is literally how any species propagates. So are all other animals and plants also selfish?

Other species propagate instinctively. Humans for the most part do not. Barring accidents in recreational sex (something other species mostly do not do) we make conscious choices about when to procreate and who to procreate with.

And all that parental sacrifice is about propagating your own genes, not the survival of the species as a whole. Lions will kill the cubs of a lioness before mating with her so that their genes take precedence.

I know my mother found this was the case 50+ years ago. She was 30 when she had me so practically elderly in first baby terms back then, but no one had ever passed comment on her childfree status. Seemingly within weeks of my birth people were asking when she’d be having the next one, she’d need to get on with it at her great age, it’s selfish to only have one and she’d damage me for life. She never did have another.

Creating another human being to satisfy your own need is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion.

Just out of interest, who is going to nurse you in hospital, empty your bins, put your food on shelves, drive your bus when you are old and frail? It won’t magically happen. You need humans to keep the wheels turning.

If you are going to spout such drivel, right back at you:

Not Creating another human being to keep the future wheels turning is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion.

Does anyone bother to read the full thread anymore?

Kids, especially little kids, often think having children when you grow up is a given because obviously a lot of the adults in their lives have kids (their parents, friends parents, grandparents etc) Most parents are telling their kids how much they love them and how glad they are to have them so logically they think having kids is great.
You can gently tell them well not everyone has kids, you don't have to and that's ok etc but if you tell them not to have kids and being a parent is total shit, that would affect their self esteem and make them feel terrible. That's the way their minds work, they're not the same as adults. You can tell them the realities when they're older and it's relevant (in terms of preventing teen pregnancy or to help them make wise life choices) but again, you don't want to make them feel unwanted or that you regret having them. Most people love and enjoy their children and don't regret having them anyway.

I don't disagree that it's selfish to have a baby when you are not in a good position to give them a good life. However, many people want children because they want to give them a happy childhood and the opportunity to make a happy adulthood.

Millions of children in the UK (I think it's a third) are in absolute poverty. Is that selfish?

Come on. I very much doubt you chose to have kids for the greater good of society. People have children for their own personal fulfilment. Yes, of course society suffers when the birth rate drops, but let's not pretend people embark on procreation for altruistic reasons. They do it because they want to.

Yes, of course society suffers when the birth rate drops, but let's not pretend people embark on procreation for altruistic reasons. They do it because they want to.

Yes, and that's not any more selfish than choosing to not have children.

Someone earlier had suggested that "having children is the epitome of selfishness", and that's what many are taking issue with.

Millions of children in the UK (I think it's a third) are in absolute poverty. Is that selfish?

Millions of children worldwide live in even greater poverty. Is that selfish?

It is though. I didn’t say no one should have children, but people have children to fulfil their own desire, wants and needs. Selfish. They don’t to keep the human race running and to ensure that elderly people have someone to look after them in later life. Many have children without a second thought as to how to look after them through life in the absence of money, support, faced with illness. Many people do. Good for them.

Erm, yes, I know. I read the thread too. I was taking issue with something different, namely the 'but who will empty your bins?' etc etc argument that's trotted out often towards the childfree by choice. I do think some parents think the very act of becoming parents elevates them to some sort of moral high ground, and it's that sanctimoniousness I was objecting to.

but people have children to fulfil their own desire, wants and needs. Selfish.

Perhaps it would help if we defined the term 'selfish' ?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish
I suppose you can't really ask before you bring someone into the world if they want to come.
For what it is worth I think the act of parenting properly is very unselfish. Just wanting to have a child though?... Some people do not want to have children for very unselfish reasons too - could not give the child a good life, are ill etc etc etc

Having children for your own pleasure without regard to the child's wellbeing is selfish, yes.

But the vast majority of parents do parent properly and that is very unselfish imo.

So I therefore still object to the assertion that "having children is the epitome of selfishness"

One of those definitions is rather ironic considering the turn this thread has taken.

It's not possible to have a child for the child's sake, because the child hasn't been born yet and doesn't get any say in the matter. I suspect that's where some pps are seeing the act of childbearing as essentially self-centred.

This reminds me of when DH's 'wonderful' mother used to bark at him "well I didn't have to have you", like he needed to thank her for being alive. No wonder she is now estranged.

I did wonder if someone would pick that up!