Why is a life without kids still not promoted as a route to happiness?

[OptimismvsRealism]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/15/parents-are-anxious-lonely-overwhelmingly-stressed-and-their-crisis-affects-everyone

Parenthood looks awful. Certainly worse than it needs to be in modern times but fundamentally wretched in many ways. An abandonment of the self.

Shouldn't we be telling young people not to have kids unless they really want to? Like we'd advise with anything so hard.

Well yes, but why do you think people without children only have money, sleep and freedom in their lives? 🫠 what you're not grasping is that personal fulfilment is just that; personal.

Meanwhile, here you are on the MNers without children board...just as you wouldn't swap having children, for others they wouldn't swap the decisions they've made and the lives they have built- some of which (shock horror) don't involve having children. If you're so secure in your decisions why are you arsed?

I don't think anyone should be telling people they should have kids or not to have kids, I think it comes down to personal choice and circumstances.

I always had the biological urge to want to become a mum and pre-parenthood me wanted 2/3 children, now I'm considering I'm one and done. That being said, I actually never felt overly maternal before I fell pregnant, I wasn't the sort that would coo over a baby or dreamt of a house full of kids but I just knew I wanted them, at some point.

When I became pregnant by surprise and had my little girl, I suddenly realised what people meant about how you felt about your own, you are in awe of this little human you created and watching them grow is like wanting to speed it up and slow it down all at the same time, but you constantly feel like you aren't doing enough and the world is forever demanding more of you, it's not so much that parenting is overwhelming or anxiety inducing its the world we're trying to be parent's in.

I struggle with the idea of having a sibling for my DD because of how tough all of it has been so far and she is only 2.5! It's a complex journey from pre-motherhood to motherhood and no one can prepare you for it until you are in it and then you just have to get on with it.

Parenting in 2024 is a lot. It's stressful, parents are trying to do it all, have a career, run a house, be the perfect insta mum, keep up with all the expectations of society and on top of it all under the constant almost unavoidable pressure of social media. It's exhausting.

There's no longer a village, and it takes a village... neighbours don't speak to one another like my parents used to when we were kids, mat leave I found was either a lonely existence or an over stimulated one trying to cram in as many baby sensory classes as possible to make sure you are nurturing your baby and making the most of your time together etc. etc...there is unsolicited parenting advice from every angle and just so much expectation placed on you all the time.

I think being a parent demands you to be selfless and resilient.

I feel overwhelmed and stressed the majority of the time, not because of my DD but because of the world in which I am trying to raise her. Cost of living has put so much pressure on families, mums return to work after mat leave to find there's still unflexible working despite what people think and gender pay gaps...still assumptions made that if nursery call and DD is sick that I'll go pick her up and still be able to do a day's work while looking after her. I'm meant to be an independent woman but also cook/clean/run a household and be the perfect wife and mummy...all while practising self care!?

Remote working means there is no longer office hours applied, people think if they contact you at 7am or 10pm they have a right to your time and a response, endless WhatsApp group chats pinging constantly demanding immediate responses...

Most mums I know put there kids to bed and then end up staying awake until the early hours just to get some time to themselves, then the cycle begins again...

I can completely understand why people in 2024 would choose to be childless.

Although if you asked me if I would do it all over again, I would in a heartbeat for my DD. It's such a hard decision but I generally haven't met anyone that regrets having their kids but just admits it's hard and life was undoubtedly easier before.

Not me emprical evidence. You know happiness has been studied ? Biggest determinants are feeling loved and societal cohesion broadly. Not free time or wealth. I'm not even sure where sleep fits in.

Referenced in this article

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/feb/06/how-to-have-a-happy-life-according-to-the-worlds-leading-expert

Did you actually read the article you posted?

Why on earth should it be 'promoted' as a route to happiness though? It's a valid lifestyle choice increasingly embraced by many, but it's no more likely to guarantee you happiness than having a family might. In fact loneliness is known to be a killer, especially of men. If you lose your life partner then you are far more likely to end up lonely, depressed and isolated in later life, with no children to feel connected to, or to want to carry on for.

All being child-free guarantees you is more free time and more money in your pocket, assuming you earn reasonably well to start with and children are not the cash cows that unlock access to better housing and more benefits for you. Having a life with no children doesn't necessarily guarantee you less stress, or better health or a better career or a more enriching or interesting life. I'd urge anyone who isn't going to have children (whether through choice or otherwise) to seek an enriching and interesting life and to avoid falling into a hamster wheel of tedious responsibility. I'd urge them to harness the freedoms of childlessness and enjoy them to the fullest, but ultimately you still have to make that life happen for yourself. It's not a guarantee that comes with being child-free. When I look around at most of the child-free (by choice) couples I know, their lives are as ordinary as everyone else's, which I don't really understand. It seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

There is less pressure on you, so if your life is going to shit and your job is giving you burnout you can jack it all in and downsize, go off round the world, live off-grid in a yurt or whatever, and not have to think about the needs and wants of anyone but yourself. You can devote yourself to hobbies and passions and travel, and if a relationship is bad you can leave it without fear of how it will affect your children's security and happiness. You don't need to 'settle' for a sub-par relationship, or tolerate poor behaviour for fear that you don't have time to find anyone better to have children with. For women in particular, that must be incredibly empowering.

There are undoubtedly many benefits to being child-free on paper, but very few people choose not have kids based on a tick-box exercise of rationalisation. If you feel an unexplainable yearning to have them then no amount of rationalising or 'promoting' childlessness is going to make a difference. No amount of extra money in the bank or extra 'me time' is going to fill that void in your life. And what, ultimately, is the point of amassing a load of money anyway, if you don't have children to pass it on to? It's the very thing that drives us, and has always driven us, whether it's to go out hunting and gathering or to push for the next promotion.

DH and I often ask ourselves how much money we'd be worth by now, if we hadn't had three kids to shell out for. DH has been a high earner so it would be an eye watering amount frankly, assuming he'd made the same career choices and I had carried on working instead of being a SAHM for years and years. But what on earth would we have done with it all? How many fabulous holidays and nice cars and expensive restaurant meals can you have, how much golf can you play or gig/theatre going can you do before it all just feels a bit like a giant displacement activity to cover for something else that's missing?

Someone will only find true happiness in childlessness if they've chosen it. And in most cases they choose it because they come to realise they just don't have any strong maternal/paternal insinct and the idea of having children actually makes them panic and recoil in some way. I can't imagine many people make a conscious decision to ignore that biological urge or deny themselves the permission to give in to it, in favour of a simpler, easier life with fewer pressures and more disposable income. That's rational and there is nothing rational about wanting a baby. It's a instinctive urge that most of us can't switch off.

I totally get that people who are childless not through choice, could learn to be happier by embracing all the positives instead of dwelling on the negatives. They should absolutely grasp the opportunity to fill their lives with every enriching life experience possible, that most of us with children never get the time and space to do. Because if a life without children is your unchosen destiny then you may as well make that destiny as fulfilling and thrilling and distracting as possible, instead of living a life of dull routine and responsibility and always feeling sad and unfulfilled.

But frankly you are only ever going to sound like a patronising knob if you tell them this, especially as a person with children.

I totally get that people who are childless not through choice, could learn to be happier by embracing all the positives instead of dwelling on the negatives. They should absolutely grasp the opportunity to fill their lives with every enriching life experience possible, that most of us with children never get the time and space to do. Because if a life without children is your unchosen destiny then you may as well make that destiny as fulfilling and thrilling and distracting as possible, instead of living a life of dull routine and responsibility and always feeling sad and unfulfilled.

As a Childfree not originally by choice person I heartily concur with this.

It's great people have more of a choice now.

Although my siblings are 35 and 40 and don't have them. I'm glad my sister didn't have kids as she wouldn't make a good mum (she admits it). My brother would have been a great dad but his ex wife didn't want kids and I'm not sure about his new partner.

Why on earth should it be 'promoted' as a route to happiness though? It's a valid lifestyle choice increasingly embraced by many, but it's no more likely to guarantee you happiness than having a family might. In fact loneliness is known to be a killer, especially of men. If you lose your life partner then you are far more likely to end up lonely, depressed and isolated in later life, with no children to feel connected to, or to want to carry on for.

It's possible to be lonely despite having a partner and children though. Family life is not a guarantee of happiness. I see loads of "I have no friends" posts on Mumsnet from people who are married/partnered with children.

I think you’re risking ‘othering’ the childfree, though. Childfree people are just as ordinary as everyone else. The fact that they have chosen not to have children doesn’t make them any less likely to be the kind of person whose idea of a good time is watching reality tv and pottering around the shops, rather than living off-grid in a yurt in Mongolia, or saving street dogs in Delhi. They haven’t set themselves aside as extraordinary in any way by not having children, and I know some childfree people on here have said on more than one occasion that they dislike the idea projected onto them by people with children, that they should be living some kind of wild, free untrammelled existence, which they viewed as fantasy projections from people knee-deep in nappies and teenage crises.

I had a comparatively adventurous life till 40, when I had DS. Nothing particularly crazy, but I moved countries a lot, spent a period living on an otherwise uninhabited island, and on a whim took a job I was offered tutoring on a remote film set. But when I had DS I didn’t suddenly turn into the kind of person who prefers to potter at home and whose idea of ‘daring’ is a second slice of Swiss roll. I’m much the same person.

I don’t think there should be any extra pressure on the childfree, whether or not it was originally a free choice for them, to lead any more extraordinary or adventurous a life than anyone else. It’s not the job of the childfree to live out the offgrid yurt nomadic travel fantasies of Marjorie in Milton Keynes, mother of three, liker of a bimble around a garden centre.

I don’t think there should be any extra pressure on the childfree, whether or not it was originally a free choice for them, to lead any more extraordinary or adventurous a life than anyone else. It’s not the job of the childfree to live out the offgrid yurt nomadic travel fantasies of Marjorie in Milton Keynes, mother of three, liker of a bimble around a garden centre.

Oh I agree. I agreed with @TwigletsAndRadishes about making the most of childfree life but I don't think that necessarily means you have to do something extraordinary instead of having children like climbing Kilimanjaro for charity or being CEO of your own bluechip company or whatever. Just doing whatever makes you happy.

Yes. Surely, the other side of this is " Why aren't you happy? You haven't got children. " "why aren't you going on more exciting holidays? You don't have children!"
Being child free is no more a route to happiness than being child free

I mean, I do absolutely agree about making the most of childfree life, too, however that looks to an individual. I had my only child at 40 by choice, and led a fulfilling life for the entire period of adulthood brfore I had him, so I think I have quite a strong sense of what my childfree life would have looked like over the last 12 years had I not had DS. I probably would have continued to move around internationally more, and spend considerable periods of time living in different places to DH, and probably been more prolific in terms of work, but I don’t think I’d have been walking the length of Africa or running Extinction Rebellion from an anti-logging protest in the Amazon or anything.

As a "weirdo" who has never felt even a scintilla of biological urge, I'm now panicking about who is going to take my bins out in a few years 😡

That’s not what you’re supposed to be panicking about, @XDownwiththissortofthingX — you’re supposed to be panicking about not having climbed Everest, or led a wild, free, off-grid existence in some exotic spot, the kind of thing that will lead Ben Fogle to hack his way through the jungle to film you for New Lives in the Wild! 😀

I do take on board all of the points made above, I was merely trying to demonstrate that child-free people have choices and options to change anything in their life if they are dissatisfied with it, whereas parents rarely do, because they get caught up in the weight of responsibility to make sensible, low risk choices for their children's sake.

I'm not saying it's not okay to be content with a life of quiet fulfillment, or an ordinary job, being 'Marjorie bimbling around the garden centre' if it makes you happy. Just that if you are feeling burnout in that six figure salary career, why carry on when you could manage on a third of that and be happier? Rent your house out and travel for year to regain your sanity, then re-train for a less well paid but far more rewarding job later on?

If you do have an itch to be an entrepreneur then what's stopping you taking that risk, when there is no-one else depending on you to provide for them? If you lose the three bed semi, so what? You only need a one bed flat. That's liberating and it's not an attitude many people with children can afford to take.

Privilege and opportunity come in lots of different forms. Having children is a privilege but it's not without its sacrifices. It does mean the passing up of other opportunities for most people, and giving up on dreams to put everyone else first.

When I look around at most of the child-free (by choice) couples I know, their lives are as ordinary as everyone else's, which I don't really understand. It seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

Well, yeah, because we are as ordinary as everyone else. Do you think the majority of parents would, had they not had kids, be working as stuntmen and women or island caretakers or spies? Of course not. Most people live ordinary lives, with mortgages and bills and stresses and whatnot.

Childfree by choice people aren't under an obligation to have incredibly exciting lives just because parents think that's the only thing keeping parents from having the same thing. I agree that everyone should pursue happiness and fulfilment, but that doesn't look the same to everyone. I'm quite happy having a quiet, boring life, and I don't really care if a parent thinks I'm wasting my time not travelling the world as a lion-tamer or whatever.

Just that if you are feeling burnout in that six figure salary career, why carry on when you could manage on a third of that and be happier? Rent your house out and travel for year to regain your sanity, then re-train for a less well paid but far more rewarding job later on?

Why do you think that this advice is applicable to people without children? Is there evidence out there that people without kids are more likely to earn 6 figures? What are we living on whilst we're retraining, by the way? Presumably the millions we have in the bank from not having kids, amirite?!?!

what's stopping you taking that risk, when there is no-one else depending on you to provide for them? If you lose the three bed semi, so what? You only need a one bed flat.

I don't actually know who you're talking to here, but not having kids doesn't mean you're completely comfortable with risk to the point where you're prepared to risk losing your house over it. I like my house. I don't want to live in a one bed flat, even if that's all I "need".

This rhetoric is also kind of insulting to parents, many of whom do fulfil their dreams of working in exciting and risky jobs, starting a small business, or staying at home and retraining into a different career. You seem to think that the world is populated by skydiving singletons who can afford to live on their savings and lose their homes whilst chasing their wildest fantasies, and parents who have no choice but to work in boring jobs, ignore their dreams and earn little money. I find that really bizarre.

Someone I work with had a child at 36 but always harps on about not being able to just go travelling or whatever, yet before children they were the most boring person ever and never did any of that stuff anyway! Plenty of time before having them to do anything they wanted really, why they now miss it and assume they'd now be a seasoned traveller? Lots of weird misconceptions about what childfree people should do.

Why do you think that this advice is applicable to people without children? Is there evidence out there that people without kids are more likely to earn 6 figures?

In my experience, having children reduces a couple's earnings power, yes. Not only due to taking time out of their careers to prioritise their children, but also due to one parent either stopping work or going part time.

Having children is also very costly, so reduced earnings often get hit with higher costs, so yes, child free couples are likely to have a lot more spending money

Of course having children is expensive, and reduces a couple's earning power.

That doesn't mean that childfree/less people earn more than parents in the first place, much less the six figures that PP quoted.

I say this all the time on MN and yet people continue to act as though everyone in country earns the exact same salary, and therefore it's possible to say that parents are worse off in terms of disposable income.

(Also, not all childless people are in a couple.)

Actually married men with children tend to earn more than single counterparts. They are seen as more responsible.

Agreed (and I was an island caretaker way back, before I had DS! But I know that at least one person who’d done it before me, had a child living with them when they did it…)

It’s possibly a slightly different kind of othering to the ‘Childfree women are chilly careerists clicking about on their high heels busting balls in the boardroom’ stereotype, but the idea there’s a kind of exciting life you ‘should’ be having if you’re not a parent is still quite othering. I can imagine it being very frustrating to vent about a bad day or a difficult colleague to a friend who just keeps chirping ‘But you don’t have children, so why not quit and retrain as a trapeze artist?’

I think it suits the narrative of both working mothers and SAHP to tell themselves that they would have progressed further and achieved more if they hadn’t had to slow down/been discriminated against for having children. They don’t realise that women without children experience exactly the same discrimination. We miss out on many of the same opportunities just in case we have children at some point in the future.