Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
MNers without children

This board is primarily for MNers without children - others are welcome to post but please be respectful

Original poster

Hidden/unspoken societal beliefs

153 replies

EducatingArti · 30/10/2023 11:26

Inspired by the "what is the worst thing anyone has said to you" thread and the "bunfight" on Site stuff that got deleted, where I was very patiently trying to explain how having children was a societal norm/expectation and how childfree/less people had to live in this culture when it wasn't the norm for them.

What do you think are the hidden/unspoken societal beliefs about being a parent/being childfree/less that we have to live with?

So I think these:

Being childfree/childless is not "normal".
If you are childfree/childless you must be living a second best life.
Everywhere you go, most things are presented in "family with child" shaped spaces and this can feel alien/ uncomfortable.

What do you think?

OP posts:
CleverLilViper · 30/10/2023 20:35

That if I don't have kids, I must be living it up, travelling the world and living a hedonistic lifestyle at parties every night.

After all, there's only two options, am I right? You either have kids, and be "responsible" or you're a hedonist. There's nothing in between and no other option.

That I lack empathy/compassion because I didn't have kids. I can't possibly understand how horrific it is when a child is harmed. Even though I can and I do perfectly well. To be honest, those sorts of comments just make me concerned that those parents don't really have genuine empathy themselves if they needed to procreate to understand how horrible child abuse is.

That you remain trapped in a state of permanent adolescence until you have kids.

I've noticed a real issue people take with anyone who is CF enjoying themselves or enjoying the benefits of being CF and being vocal about it. It seems that if we're CF, we're to sit in a corner quietly and display an ounce of satisfaction with our lives. It's like they think we're bragging about when we're not.

That we're secretly bitter and terrified of ending up alone. Even if we insist that we're not, they still insist that we must be and anything we say to the contrary is "cope."

That having pets is "cope" and a replacement for children. Nope, if I wanted a child, I would have one. I didn't. I wanted dogs so I've got them.

That if we're not having kids and I think this one is very pervasive-we must be doing something else with our lives to serve others. We must provide care to elderly relatives, we must be free childcare to sibling's children. This expectation is only placed on CF women. Never men. It's like people have a really narrow idea of what women are and should be that they think our place in the world is to permanently be in service of someone. And if we're not and refuse to? We're selfish harridans who ought to die alone and be ashamed of ourselves.

How dare we want to live our lives on our terms?

Moreempatheticmyarse · 30/10/2023 20:50

That if I don't have kids, I must be living it up, travelling the world and living a hedonistic lifestyle at parties every night.

I would love to have one of these mythical jobs that gives me more holiday days than my colleagues who are parents so that I was able to travel the world....

But nope funnily enough I am expected to be present the exact same amount as a parent. So how I am supposed to live my hedonistic childfree life fuck knows

sammylady37 · 30/10/2023 21:18

That if we're not having kids and I think this one is very pervasive-we must be doing something else with our lives to serve others. We must provide care to elderly relatives, we must be free childcare to sibling's children. This expectation is only placed on CF women. Never men

This is so true, and it’s very damaging. When my elderly parents needed care, my siblings ran for the hills, they were just so busy at weekends, cos of the kids… each and every one of them had a spouse who was an equal parent and therefore presumably capable of looking after the kids and keeping the show on the road, but nonetheless it was always proffered as an excuse. If any of my siblings left their home for a weekend, their spouse could have done the usual things like laundry, shopping etc but if I left my home nothing got done and I often came back home late on a Sunday evening to find I had no milk for a cup of tea etc. This went on for two years until it nearly broke me from exhaustion and eventually some (not all) of my siblings came on board, albeit reluctantly and with resentment. Both my parents are now deceased, and the narrative has been rewritten by the siblings, anyone would think they were the ones who put in the relentless shifts I did. I just grit my teeth now and put up with it for the sake of civility, but some are wondering why our relationship is no longer the same as it once was.

BridgetRandomfuck · 30/10/2023 21:19

chomptoffee · 30/10/2023 13:17

I read years ago that the "urge" women speak of to have children doesn't seem to exist in a biological sense. We have a drive to pair bond and a sex drive which for most of history took care of the getting pregnant part and then a maternal instinct that kicks in once women are pregnant and give birth.

Research showed that what women described has a deep biological urge to have a baby was in fact various societal and family pressures along with personal life circumstances which caused these feelings and nothing innate at all was at play. However many mothers and even fathers will swear blind that the urge is biological. I think this is different from the idea that a person may look at the idea of having children and think I would like to do that, I would relish that experience which is probably also true in many cases. I've also read that their is some evidence that pronatalist sentiment and cultural messaging increases where women have less children or none and have more right and freedom in general so that may account for adverts and so on showing us images of women always as mothers.

I think if it were more known that the "biological urge" to have have kids doesn't actually exist and that it is a complex mix of the sex drive and societal messaging that makes people feel that way then perhaps women who decided they didn't want kids wouldn't seem so "unnatural" which then feeds into them being cold, shallow and so on. Most evidence shows that we are simply smarter and better educated (sorry but that is a fact) and better able to discern our own desires, thoughts and feelings from those imposed on us from outside sources.

I completely agree with this! People often wang on about the ‘biological drive’ to have a child, and child free women are either denying theirs, or are freaks for not having it, but it’s such rubbish. We are the only species to work out that sex = babies. All animals have a drive to mate, but are not longing to become mummies/daddies. That’s the consequence of mating, and obviously why the drive exists, but given that it’s only fairly recently that we’ve been able to have reliable contraception, most people didn’t out much choice into whether they would have a child, it was largely a given if you got married or had sex. Many women around the world still don’t have the luxury of this choice.

SunlightOverBamburgh · 30/10/2023 21:19

As we speak there is a thread at the moment about someone who knows a lady who claims to not only be the central figure of her own life but of everyone elses and one person has to chime in with her narcissism is inked to her being childfree/less. Makes me want to eyeroll.

SunlightOverBamburgh · 30/10/2023 21:19

I'm so sick of the trope that childfree is linked to narcissism.

KimberleyClark · 30/10/2023 21:33

BridgetRandomfuck · 30/10/2023 21:19

I completely agree with this! People often wang on about the ‘biological drive’ to have a child, and child free women are either denying theirs, or are freaks for not having it, but it’s such rubbish. We are the only species to work out that sex = babies. All animals have a drive to mate, but are not longing to become mummies/daddies. That’s the consequence of mating, and obviously why the drive exists, but given that it’s only fairly recently that we’ve been able to have reliable contraception, most people didn’t out much choice into whether they would have a child, it was largely a given if you got married or had sex. Many women around the world still don’t have the luxury of this choice.

Show quote history

Saying it’s a biological drive excuses people from having to examine and justify their reasons. Yet it’s the childfree who are called upon to justify themselves.

spookehtooth · 30/10/2023 21:43

@LoobyDop matrix by Lauren Geoff?

spookehtooth · 31/10/2023 07:19

It's only a biological drive if you have earn enough to cover the costs, if you're poor then it's just irresponsible to have children.

There's something very unique about this biological process, the way it's modulated by a person's back balance 🤔 Too much money seems to act as a kind of suppressant, hence falling birth rates in wealthier countries. There's another mechanism to research

LoobyDop · 31/10/2023 11:12

spookehtooth · 30/10/2023 21:43

@LoobyDop matrix by Lauren Geoff?

That’s the one- really good.

LoobyDop · 31/10/2023 11:15

The whole biological drive thing is a weak argument for doing something anyway. I have a deep-seated drive to spend all my time lolling around on a sunlounger eating, drinking and sleeping. I don’t just give in to that, because I know it wouldn’t do me any good in the long run. We’re very sophisticated, highly intelligent beings, we’re not supposed to be just blindly ruled by biological urges.

CleverLilViper · 31/10/2023 11:31

Just watching Beetlejuice now on my Halloween watchlist-and damn, just got to the bit where the couple's "friend" is trying to force them to sell their house to a family as it's "too big" for a couple without kids.

I bet it was the friend who let the dog loose which resulted in their car going off the bridge and killing them, so she could make commission off the house.

It just tickled me that this belief that couples or single people shouldn't have big homes because what about the families with kids?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 31/10/2023 11:50

Just watching Beetlejuice now on my Halloween watchlist-and damn, just got to the bit where the couple's "friend" is trying to force them to sell their house to a family as it's "too big" for a couple without kids.

I'm cussed enough to ask people to define their terms when they come out with stuff like that. 'What do you mean, 'too big?' what do you mean, 'don't need'?

Watching TV last night and TWICE within an hour two people came out with 'as a parent this really affects me.' I'm sorry to say that I was telling the TV* that's a meaningless cliche because you have no insight, dear parent, into to what extent what you're talking about affected anyone else.

*I've turned into DM. Bad, bad sign.

It just tickled me that this belief that couples or single people shouldn't have big homes because what about the families with kids?

What about them? I have enough trouble running my own life, I can't be responsible for millions of strangers as well.

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 31/10/2023 12:01

I sometimes get “how can you know about child and baby care?”.

You’re right I don’t have parenting experience but I took and passed a GCSE childcare course.

You are seen by a few parents to be pitied, their lives are more important due to children.

I do have holidays and am luckily fairly financially secure but when I wasn’t it was assumed I had loads of money/savings/free time.

My gripe when I was younger (and still on the fence re having children) was lots of women assumed I would have or want children, I really was always 50/50 and depended on circumstances. It’s a pity I dated men who were or weren’t suitable father material but I didn’t want to be a single mum like my DM in 70s.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 31/10/2023 12:09

I sometimes get “how can you know about child and baby care?”

DM's cousin was a child psychologist (often think she'd have had a field day with us). I can recall DM ranting 'how can she do that when she doesn't have children??' Er, education and training, ma? the same way everyone learns to do stuff?

Whitebox · 31/10/2023 12:12

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 31/10/2023 12:01

I sometimes get “how can you know about child and baby care?”.

You’re right I don’t have parenting experience but I took and passed a GCSE childcare course.

You are seen by a few parents to be pitied, their lives are more important due to children.

I do have holidays and am luckily fairly financially secure but when I wasn’t it was assumed I had loads of money/savings/free time.

My gripe when I was younger (and still on the fence re having children) was lots of women assumed I would have or want children, I really was always 50/50 and depended on circumstances. It’s a pity I dated men who were or weren’t suitable father material but I didn’t want to be a single mum like my DM in 70s.

Even if someone isn't educated in childcare, they're still allowed an opinion. People have opinions every day about eg the prime minister, their boss, retail staff, hospitality staff, teachers, sports coaches, football players, the people who made the film they're watching and they don't do those things 🤷🏼‍♀️

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 31/10/2023 12:21

Even if someone isn't educated in childcare, they're still allowed an opinion3

I have definite opinions on childcare and childraising. 😀

KimberleyClark · 31/10/2023 12:25

I've noticed a real issue people take with anyone who is CF enjoying themselves or enjoying the benefits of being CF and being vocal about it. It seems that if we're CF, we're to sit in a corner quietly and display an ounce of satisfaction with our lives. It's like they think we're bragging about when we're not.

That we're secretly bitter and terrified of ending up alone. Even if we insist that we're not, they still insist that we must be and anything we say to the contrary is "cope."

I have noticed this particularly as one who used to be childless and is now childfree. Like “how dare you be happy. You couldn’t have kids, you’re supposed to be bitter and sad!”

CreationNat1on · 31/10/2023 12:42

Very well described, particularly the part about women being expected to endlessly serve others.

Reminds me of the Madonna whore complex, the good girls and the bad girls. Sexuality shaming, and children shaming; different analysis applied to me and women.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 31/10/2023 13:38

It just tickled me that this belief that couples or single people shouldn't have big homes because what about the families with kids?

I’ve had more than one person say it was a shame I bought a “family home” when there are so many “needy families” out there. As if I jumped an invisible queue or literally barged a family of 6 out of my way.

In any case my house had 2 previous sales fall through as the seller was bonkers, so maybe it’s a “shame” those people didn’t stay the course.

daliesque · 31/10/2023 19:41

That we are out partying every night and stunted as human beings as a sort of eternal teenager.

daliesque · 31/10/2023 20:07

When my elderly parents needed care, my siblings ran for the hills, they were just so busy at weekends, cos of the kids…

My siblings with kids tried that one on my eldest sister and I. Didn't work thank god because

  • both of us have pretty full on careers where we work long hours and have lots of responsibility
  • our mother hated us both and wouldn't want either of us to look after her when she was dying
  • we hated our mother and didn't want to loom after her
  • we both moved at least 300 miles away from the evil old bag
daliesque · 31/10/2023 20:10

I'm so sick of the trope that childfree is linked to narcissism

Unless you are the parent of a boy.....and that boy has grown up and married and during that ceremony you automatically gain narcissistic tendencies with which to piss your new daughter in law off for every more.....

EmpressaurusOfCats · 31/10/2023 21:01

SunlightOverBamburgh · 30/10/2023 21:19

As we speak there is a thread at the moment about someone who knows a lady who claims to not only be the central figure of her own life but of everyone elses and one person has to chime in with her narcissism is inked to her being childfree/less. Makes me want to eyeroll.

I’ve responded on the thread. No answer yet though.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 31/10/2023 21:32

….And just realised I missed all the other excellent replies when posting mine.