BIRTH TRAUMA SUPPORT THREAD.

[VictorianSqualor]

As has come up on a number of threads, many of us seem to have suffered from birth trauma.

It's all well and good knowing facts and figures, which of course, can ease our fears slightly, but with every birth having a chance of going severely wrong, adding that to birth trauma issues is going to convince us that we could be in whatever small percentage of people do suffer from our fears.

This thread is to help us come to terms with what happened during our previous births that left us with these emotional scars and to support each other through the journeys that we will go through in both our minds and possible future/current pregnancies.

There have been previous threads on which people have oupoured their experiences but acknowledgement and discussion is more than each of us telling our own experiences, so I ask that not only do we tell our own stories but we acknowledge other's and help them to discuss their past too.

Giving birth should be a calm, and beautiful thing, not one full of fear and panic.

Mama - I have a friend who berates me quite a lot for having 3 sections and I just mumble and ignore her. I feel like screaming at her that she knows nothing of what I've gone through and I wasn't too lazy/too posh and had nothing to do with my diabetes for not having gone through natural childbirth

Oh, yes, that old chestnut. I was told by someone that "you are not a real mother unless you give birth naturally" ... what a cow!

Firstly, WOW, I can't believe how quickly this thread has grown. I'm not sure whether to be sad we all experienced it or happy we've all got somewhere to vent!

piratecat My sympathies on your marriage breakdown, I know what you mean about feeling stupid for not knowing, now I'm pretty well up on the subject it annoys me that I didn't know these things sooner. I never attended an ante-natal class, I was never offered one, and didn't know that I should try and find them myself.

La Trucha I too had no idea of what could happen in labour, I had been birthing partner for a friend and she had a textbook labour, it was a wonderful experience and something I expected to go through myself, I've always been excited by the idea of birth, rather than frightened but boy was I in for a shock.

BE Glad, you're here. Hope it's all going
ok for you at the moment.

Damdaffs you say 8 out of the 10 women in your antenatal classes had EMCS, I wonder how many of them could have been avoided with proper labour management?

snowymum Hope your homebirth goes swimmingly, I think being armed with information and prepared for the worst is probably the best way to achieve the kind of labour we all would love to have.

tiredemma Hope it helps, are you studying midwifery?

2point4kids You're right, much of this could have been avoided, I think that too added to my own trauma with DS1, and probably why though I had terrible PND with DD I think that was more the fear of her dying that spun me out, not the birth or the lead up to it., also I think you can request your notes whenever, DD is nearly eight and I requested her notes. I kind of left it though because I wanted to focus on DS2's pregnancy but I may get them now.

Haylstones I'm no expert but I'd say the midwives making you push before your body was ready would have caused much of your problems Can you remember why they said you needed to push? Time restraints?

canofworms I can't believe they lost your baby! OMFG!! I found it bad enough knowing DS1 had been taken to HDU to wait for me!

I don't think anyone can understand that yearning for a natural or uncomplicated birth unless they've been in that situation, I feel almost robbed of something my body should be able to do and for some of you to have been told you couldn't cut it

hi VS! Yup this is turning into a monster thread!

That was 8 out of 10 friends of mine not antenatal people, and they were all first timers. The cynic in me suspects they all just took too long in labour and it was all about needing beds. Big city hospital. hope i'm wrong!

I think some mothers can be quite competitive about childbirth in the same way that they can be about their children. Its a shame as mums should stick together and be supportive. I felt quite offended when my sister in law announced she'd managed her first birth with hardly any drugs. I felt like a failure for having had an epidural, tho felt it was right decision for me and god knows i had to wait hours for it!

However, i know now that epidural usually means an overnight stay in hospital and i'd do anything to avoid that again. i would prob soldier on without it just to make a fast getaway...

Hi VS - I think this thread is a fantastic idea. Both my mum and sister have been traumatised by birth ( I have been v lucky)

I told my mum about this thread and she wanted to add these comments:

She had her births over 30 years ago and is still tramatised by them (she asked for a natural birth, after 30 hours of intense contrations, and fainting she asked for some gas and air / drugs...anything and kept being told 'now dear, you wanted a natural birth dear this is what you get...) eventually gave birth on her back with her legs above her head in an attempt to stop her being unconcious

anyway she wants to say it took her 33 years to tell anyone how bad her labours were (she only told us after we had had kids as she didn't want to scare us)

but she is still trauamasied by it but is being to come to terms with them as she has finally starting talking about it. She advises all of you who are having bad memories to find someone to talk to, as she has found it much better now the stories have been told.

good luck to you, your stories have made me cry (())

noonki - at your mums story. It sounds horrible I can understand why she's still so traumatised! Some people are just bloody barbaric when it comes to child birth.

starlight - A belated congrats on LO and hope all goes well for you pregnancy and labour wise.

I have also found that MN is a great help when you are feeling down or just anxious. It helps to know that your not the only person going through things. I just wish I'd known about MN before.

What a great idea for a thread VS , but sorry about your experiences with both DD and DS1

I really wish I'd known about MN when I had DS six years ago.

What started off as a pretty routine induction with me (in spite of three doses of prostin gel), last prostin administered at teatime, waters broke naturally at just after midnight, dilation steady and progressing well through the night, it all started to go wrong.

The first thing was that my midwife was called away to an emergency with another of her patients and we were given a relief midwife who sat at the bottom of the bed completing her notes. She didn't examine me at all, and only talked to me when I either asked her something directly, or to tell me that the shouting I was doing was only succeeeding in giving me a sore throat. She also made me put a hospital gown on when I just wanted to be naked.

Anyway, I had been examined just before she took over around four am and had been 4cms. At about six am I really felt the urge to push and she wouldn;t examine me, telling me I couldn't possibly have dilated fully in just over two hours . I suppressed the urges as best I could, but I was tired, in a lot of pain as the diamorphine I'd had earlier was wearing off and although the gas and air was working, tiredness and not really knowing what I was doing, as well as lack of direction from her was making it very difficult to get it right and I kept passing out. My body had other ideas about not pushing and I just couldn't stop myself. (I comfort myself with the fact that the drugs had made my tongue a bit loose and I kept saying to my sister and DH, in a stage whisper, "I don't like that woman" and other more choice things ).

Anyhoo, I wasn't examined until after the shift change at 8.30 and was told I was fully dilated, but that there was a rim of cervix, but not to worry, I could push though it , so crack on. After two hours of pushing, with no difference ion the cervical rim, I was so tired that I was falling asleep between contractions and was delirious with pain (they said it was too late for an epidural and the second dose of diamorphine didn't even touch the pain, just made me very literal with the truth and I spent a happy half hour telling people exactly what i thought of them ). Then my contractions slowed down and they gave me an oxytocin drip, mucking it up in the first hand (I was black and blue for two weeks) before getting it in the other. That just made things worse as the contractions were relentless and very painful. I was screaming in pain. By this time, DS had gotten himself stuck and was wedged up against my pelvis, although he was surprisingly totally unaffected by all the goings on.

Another examination at 11:30 and they decided it wasn't happening (the rim of tissue had swollen further) and that I would need to go to theatre. I didn't want a c-section, and only consented after the consultant showed me her scar! So they had told me to stop pushing, but thanks to the oxytocin that was very difficult and I was passing out with the effort of not pushing. They gave me an epidural and after 20 mins tried to get the gas and air from me, but I wouldn;t let it go as I was still feeling a lot of pain. Another 20 minutes and they decided the epi hadn't worked (no shit sherlocks) and they decided to give me a spinal block. At this point I was still contracting for about a 90 seconds with 60 seconds between, trying not to push, and trying to hold still so they could do the spinal. It finally took three people to hold me still in the right position so they could do it, which I wasn't happy about as it was the same anaesthetist who had done the epidural and she was taking instructions from her boss, and the pain was excruciating during the whole process.

My sister and DH were also beside themselves as there was nothing they could do other than try and calm me down but I was getting hysterical. At some point the Obs came in, took one look at what was going on and took charge saying "this woman needs to go to theatre and she needs to go now" and then had my sis helping her scrub in in the delivery room. All the while they kept on spraying that cold spray at me which was starting to annoy me more than a little.

Finally the pain had gone and I was wheeled into theatre just after 12.30. They tried with forceps but I was too swollen so they opted for the section and DS was delivered at 12.50, blissfully unaware of all the fuss, but with the most horrendous moulding to his head where he had been stuck; he had two little horns and a 2cm deep bruise right across his forehead where he had been against my pelvis.

Phew.

I talked through my notes with the cons the next day and she said that it was "just one of those things", but knowing what i do now, I'm pretty sure that when I first felt the urge to push I was in transition (hence the general gobbiness), and that if I'd been examined I could've been helped through it and DS would have made a much more relaxed and happy (for me anyway) journey into the world. I'm pretty sure that the last six hours should have been very different. I also now know that pushing at a rim of cervix is only going to make it swell even more and that this was completely bum advice. Different if the MW had been trying to push/hold it aside as I was pushing, but she definately wasn't anywhere near the bottom end at that point.

When I had DD last year, I was all set for a trial of labour, but bottled it at the last minute and opted for an elective. The op was textbook and fab and relaxed, but my recovery was so long (four weeks before I could stand for more than 20 minutes without being in pain), so this time (due in November) I'm determined to have a natural birth, on my terms and with as little intervention as possible.

Writing this though (sorry it's an epic ) brings it all back and makes me wonder about how I'll deal with things if it isn't going well again as I'm not sure I could deal with another experience like that. I had very bad PND afterwards and failed to get BFing established. Six years on and I am still struggling to come to terms with it and still trying to shake the depression that has been a recurring theme in my life since then.

But, I have hired a doula and have read extensively about VBAC so am as prepared as I can be, but as it looms closer, the wobbles are setting in again.

Right it's taken me over an hour to get that all down. I'm off to read the rest of the thread now

omg...it was an epic wasn't it?

thanks to anyone who has managed to wade through that!

I've posted about my experiences far too many times already. I think that my experiences really boil down to the fact that:
I was laughed at.
I was cut without my consent.
I was lied to.
There is no way that the hospital (or OB) have any comeback about the way that they treated me (i.e. all the treatment that I've needed since the birth).
I will have a scar of my vagina for ever. So a moment's arrogance on the part of the doctor will never go away for me. That's the worst thing for me, it wasn't just "one day" - the consequences are for the rest of my life.

Interestingly, one thing that has happened recently is that I had a debrief of the notes with DH present. I think that MN has helped me understand a great deal of what went on, but that he had no idea. It was only when the CMW told him that DD was not in distress and that there was no emergency need for an instrumental delivery that he really believed it. He is now much better primed for the next delivery, and was shocked at how ignorant he was. He also admitted that having watched deliveries on television that he thought that it was normal to "purple push" and so it shocked him that I didn't have an overwhelming urge (which of course I didn't - DD was stuck so far up that she never really engaged). That was the cause of him shouting at me to "come on - PUSH", which didn't really help. Thank goodness he happened to be at the appointment though (was a close run thing) as now he can be a proper birth partner and really advocate for me when I deliver in October.

I am a bit that I've been telling DH for almost 2 years that it wasn't an emergency and that he only really believed it when a midwife told him though. I think that's part of the problem isn't it - that sometimes men (and women) are primed to follow authority. He's normally so bloody stubborn and rebellious, but the thought of losing DD (or me) was too scary. I think that the medical team play up to that too - there is a lot of "but you surely don't want to put you baby at risk?" stuff that comes up on MN.

ikwym mrstittlemouse. We wer totally in the hands of the medical prefessionals as we didn't know what was going on and were so scared and confused that we did just what they told us.

I'm much more confident having my doula on board this time as she will be able to translate if necessary and also advocate our wishes better.

I'm sorry for what you went through

Daisy that all sounds so awful! Well done for having the courage to have more. I couldn't go through it again although I never wanted a big family and have considered one more the thought of pregnancy and labour just terrifies me and I couldn't do it. I'm sure all will be fine with this LO. Whatever you decide.

I'm glad that you're feeling more confident. It is hard not to have the wobbles sometimes though, isn't it?

I think what DH needed (and never got from the antenatal classes - he attended them all), was an "if this, then that" list. Now we have a whole set of criteria set out for him "if my perineum is buttonholing, or DD's heartrate has crashed then I consent to episiotomy", "if the baby is well descended but in distress, then I consent to an instrumental delivery". Otherwise, of course, I do not give consent to either of those, just like I bloody didn't last time.

I suppose that they don't want to scare you at antenatal class, but to be honest, the number of women that have what I consider to be a "normal" first delivery are very low amongst my friends. Second time around seems a lot higher, so I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for both of us.

dd1 was CS - shocked me massively and i honestly thought i was going to die - my body shook uncontrollably for 48 hours afterwards. ds1 back-to-back VBAC, really horrible attempts to turn him internally to no avail, and he eventually turned himself and was born after an hour of pushing whilst they prepped for CS. i was in such a state with stitches and bruising they wouldn't discharge me for a week.
dd2 labour was fine (i was told no C/S as i had already had a 'successful VBAC' snort) and decided to give birth standing next to bed - student mw was prepped to 'catch' as it were. monitoring had been sporadic but mw felt that as i'd had 2 before it would all be fine. student mw was faffing about trying to decide if i was fully dilated, so proper mw elbowed her out of the way, touched dd2's head which had crowned, and shouted for the head mw and for someone to crash the paeds as the head was cool to the touch. the student was literally elbowed out of the way whilst people appeared from nowhere and manhandled me onto the bed - massive episiotomy and prepped ventouse etc. told to stop pushing as cord around neck, shoulder dystocia etc. dd2 born without ventouse but not breathing and hr of 28bpm - bagged, heart massage, ventilated, taken away. the midwife told me she's given her an apgar of 1, because she still actually had a heartbeat. no-one told me what was happening for four hours and i had no idea if she was dead or alive. they eventually realised they had forgotten about the placenta and sorted me out/ stitched me up (and later prescribed me anti-bs for infection). dd2 spent the next 6 weeks in SCBU with seizures etc and has cp as a result of birth hypoxia. she's nearly 5 now, but i still have flashbacks to the actual birth and to moments in SCBU where saliva pooled in her throat and stopped her breathing - so sudden, and they come out of nowhere. it's the suddenness that still takes my breath away.
i do think there aren't enough opportunities for women who have had traumatic births to discuss openly - and an all pervading sense of guilt and failure as though somehow the woman was the cause... the shiny happy baby magazines very infrequently mention the possibility of anything other than a perfect birth (or maybe a one liner - contact x helpline if you are worried about y) and medical professionals don't have the time to sit and listen to the next woman on the baby factory lineup. for me it was complicated by the fact that i gave birth in three countries, but although they paid lip service to prior experience (oh, it's your 3rd, what are you worried about') there was never very much actual listening going on, which seems to be very common on this thread. i have no real problem with the actions of the mw and the actual birth in dd2's case - it was the urgency that undoubtedly saved her life, but the impact of the experience is huge.

Daisy, I really hope you get your VBA2C
MrsTittleMouse That is probably one of the single most annoying things I have ever found, the patient is wrong, the medical professional is right, oh fuck off are they, they are human, therefore infallible!
Rony Sorry to hear your daughter has CP, that's the one thing I'm thanful for, that even though I had shite experiences the only real scars are emotional (well and a cut up my belly from fanjo to belly button, and about an inch wide, but ykwim.)

I posted my story yesterday, and am amazed to see how this thread has grown - every story such a sad testament to how the NHS fails women.

VS you asked what my birth plans are for this pregnancy. I'm seeing the mw for the first time next week so will have an initial discussion with her. Part of me would love to have a home-birth, but another part of me is terrified of having to be transferred again. After the shoulder dystocia and pph I don't think they will want me to go for a homebirth, so I'm thinking the best option would be to go to the mw-led unit at the main hospital (i.e. no lengthy transfer to consultant ward if needed), and to take a doula with me. The main thing I have learned is to stay at home as long as possible, have better strategies for dealing with the earlier contractions instead of thinking that by getting to hospital I'd be magically urging the process on, NOT have pethidine, and to avoid as much intervention as possible. I wouldn't particularly want to be examined as this was incredibly painful and interrupted my ability to deal with the contractions. I wouldn't want to be monitored unless absolutely necessary. I wouldn't want to be induced or have syntocin at all - if there is a problem with the length of time it is taking I'd rather have a CS if it is an emergency, or do things in my own time. I'm also going to think more carefully about posture before birth - use a birthing ball etc, and not slump on the sofa which I'm sure can't have helped me.

I haven't been back to the hospital I gave birth to dd in, and I'm not sure how I will feel but it is going to become necessary, so I guess I have to deal with that.

I second what someone said earlier about other people's responses making you feel absolutely awful. My SIL had a 'textbook' labour, and I was listening to her talking about her own SIL who had a long and difficult labour followed by epidural then em-CS. My SIL commented that 'she has a low pain threshold' and this annoyed me so much - there are so many factors involved in how you deal with pain. The length of time being a big one - after 30+ hours you are so tired and disoriented it is hard to deal with anything. People can be so judgemental can't they? I'm glad my SIL had the type of birth I really hope I can have, but just wish she had a bit more tact when she talks about labour to me!

How does everyone feel their experiences have affected their relationship with their babies? I find it so sad when I hear mum's have had a hard time connecting with their babies because they've cut themselves off in the fear that the baby won't survive. I have found that I went completely the other way and was incredibly anxious and over protective of my lo. It made him fractious and now I have learnt to relax and let him get on with being a boy he is a different person.

I have a friend due to drop in 5 weeks & she's meeting her MW to write up the birthplan on Tuesday. I've not said anything as don't want to piddle on her bonfire but did anyone here find theirs of any use at all?! I wanted a natural birth & for my baby to be put straight on my skin.....I got an EMCS with my baby whipped off immediately to ICBU. All necessary of course but I feel they can be slightly misleading as us first timers honestly think that that's what will happen. Although- not sure if there are any other mum's under Maidstone care- we got 1 antenatal class and there was never any mention of a birth plan!!

Also- has anyone had any experience of a Transition Ward? Hell on Earth- you're treated like a St Trinian's drop out constantly monitored by a load of bitter old matrons desperate for you to call on their years of hard earned experience in belittling new mums. One woman I know had trouble with BF and was told 'Lucky we're not in Africa, isn't it?'. Nice.

OiMum - it wasn't until I read your post that I've really considered the question, as I've always thought I hadn't had a problem bonding with dd. But I'm definately over-anxious and over-protective. I can't leave her with anyone, and am a complete slave to her routine to the extent that I sometimes think I've forgotten that I am a person in my own right. I knew that my determination/fixation with bf stemmed from my feelings of failure/inadequacy with regards the birth, but I hadn't really put it all together iykwim. You've really made me think!

I was worried that it might affect how I felt about dd but I was very lucky and had an enormous flood of the baby hormones and fell instantly in love. I can easily see how it could happen though.

It's so difficult to tell if the traumatic birth has affected my relationship with DD - after all you can't go back and try it all again with a happy natural birth and see if there's a difference, can you? I know that I was very defensive about that thought at first, I think because DD was a "difficult" baby and I really wanted to bond well. In retrospect I think that while the birth had an affect for the first couple of weeks (when she was still suffering physically), it was her personality that made things more tiring after that. DD is still very stubborn and independent, which is great, but wasn't so easy when she didn't want to sleep!

I think that I was very lucky not to get PND though. I was in a stressful personal situation, I was exhausted after the birth, I had lost a lot of blood and I barely slept. I still thank my lucky stars that at least I was spared depression as well.

My relationship with DD was definitely affected by her being so poorly, even now I don't feel the same bond with her as I do with my DS's, though that could also be because she is a girl, based on my terrible relationship with my mother. My BT was most prevelant with DS1 though and it didn't hinder bonding at all.

The bonding is an ineresting issue. TBH, I don't think I had/have any problems with ds. I think if anything I was more stressed and uptight with dd (my first) but think this was just a case of PFBitiswith ds I had that instant rush of love and was instantly relaxed and laid back with him. The mws were concerned because he was 'grunting' in his sleep and were testing his blood sugars etc but I was confident that he was just making baby noises- with dd I'd have been worried sick!
I have given this a lot of thought since last night and found the release quite cathartic; there has been so much supportgood advice on here (much more than I've had in over 5 months in RL!)

VS, I can't really remember why I was told to start pushing. I think it was because they had been waiting for me to reach 10cm and because he was my 2nd it was expected to happen quite quickly. I had had an epidural so didn't expect to feel the pushing urge but on reflection I had an epidural with dd and still felt it then so I probably should have argued the point more . I pushed so so hard despite not feeling any progress and having no natural urge to do so, which just exhausted me with little result (the little progress he made was insignificant as he had to be pushed back in before the cs.

THanks for listening everyone. Hopefully my notes will arrive soon and I may have to call on the wisdom of MN to help me read and process them!
I've never heard of a transition ward...

The whole "pushing" thing is interesting. I never had the urge to push either, and from my notes DD had never engaged properly - the OP position meant that she couldn't. So my 2 hours of really going for it I suppose had very little chance of working. Had I known I think that I would just have argued for the CS then. I doubt that it would have made a huge amount of difference though, as the OB was so determined to try an instrumental first.

By the way, I don't think that I was a good candidate for an instrumental, as DD was so high up, and because her head was bulging (from me trying to push her out for so long). I now wonder if that's why I've healed so badly since. Could that be right?

I don't knwo anything about the healing tittlemouse but I'm sure someone will. The cons suggested forceps for me but decided against when she re-examined his position in theatre.
RE the pushing, my ds was OP/DTA so I think it unlikely that he ever got into the perfect position for pushing but am hoping to find out more when I receive the notes. His head was perfect- we visited an osteopath within days and he needed vey little work done so I suspect he didn't progress much at all. Dd was much worse off after a ventouse
Does anyhone else get a really cold chill whenever they remember bits of the birth/delivery. I still remember this cold trickle of panic and fear when they told me they would be taking me into theare, giving me a spinal to try forceps but if that failed I may have a cs. (interestingly, dh says he knew at this point that it was going to be a cs-dunno how- but they decided against forceps and this decision was made after only a few seconds examination. I wonder if they said that to break the cs news to me gently)