I want to give up!!

[wobblymum]

I can't get to grips with breastfeeding and I feel like just switching to formula now.

I was in hospital for 2 weeks because dd had bad jaundice and Strep B infection. She lost a fir bit of weight because of it and would sleep most of the time and wouldn't feed well at all. The midwives weren't much help and I left hospital no better off in breastfeeding than when she was first born. Now I've been home a week and I still can't breastfeed very well. DD hasn't put on any weight like she should have and the health visitor says shes quite worried. I'm trying to top her up with a bottle at night but that doesn't seem to be working too well but it's better than nothing. I can't express, it just never seems to work.

I'm having to force myself to eat and drink to help my milk supply because I just feel sick all the time. DD hardly ever wants to spend much time at the breast, so she can't possibly be getting loads of food. I try to keep putting her on every 3 hours, as suggested by the midwife, but she just wants to sleep and I never seem to be able to get time to rest or eat in between.

It's really getting me down and I just feel like bottle feeding would be the perfect solution but I want to breastfeed and I feel guilty just about the idea, because breast is best. Also I feel like I'll really regret it if I give up now but I don't feel like I can carry on - I just feel stuck in the middle.

Has anyone been through a similar situation? Please help, I just don't know what to do. I feel useless at getting the position and latching on right, even though I've had loads of advice and demonstrations and I feel like I'm not doing it long enough or often enough. I'm trying, but I just get so exhausted.

jessi - excellent news! Funny the things you get excited about when you're a mum isn't it??? I've tried to express for ages using a breast pump and all I get is just enough to cover the bottom of the bottle - half an ounce would be good for me! I've just given up now and written it off as a lost cause. DD will have to stimulate her own supply!!

As for the sleep - I know exactly what you mean! That's one of the benfits of me having to give dd a bottle top-up twice a day, I do one just before bed and I (sometimes) get a whole 4 hours uninterrupted sleep!! Wow!! Mind you, that's all I get!!! She doesn't want to go down until about 3 o'clock and then I get up about 7 and that's it for the night!! Sometimes I get to doze in the day but that's a luxury!! Does it settle down any time soon or is this the way I should expect my life to run from now on????

One day, wobblymum, one day...

So glad about the poo, Jessi!

I could only express if I could not see or here my DSs. I got my most when expressing with one hand and (say) looking at the internet using the other. If I completely ignored what I was doing, I'd look down after a short while and find a bottle full. Wierd since you're generally advised to look at a picture of your baby! I wonder if there is a certain mental block about the "unnaturalmess" of using a pump when you're meant to be feeding a baby - maybe me ignoring what I was doing got round this.

Motherinferior it was an up the back jobby! bless, they are so inoffensive baby ones aren't they.
A new discovery, she has taken to a dummy and although I was anti it, its proving very useful. I have only used it twice, when I had just fed her and she wanted to stay on and comfort feed to nod off to sleep. That would be fine but the minute you go to move her to her crib its one eye open and a wail. Well, the dummy is a miracle worker. I fed her, put her in her little rocker chair and she nodded off while I put ds to bed. Then I just fed her again tonight, put her in her crib while she was awake (!) gave her the dummy and she has been asleep in there now for the past hour and a half. So as you can see I am relieved to say the least. She has NEVER settled in her crib unless completely zonked and then only for a very short while.Does anyone have advice re: newborns and dummies, is it really bad to use one or is it OK so long as its not to replace a feed? I am just so thrilled that I managed to give ds abit of time and put him to bed, rather than wait until dh got home much later, I have also washed my hair for the first time this week which really is a bonus! Crazy isn't it this motherhood lark, on the one hand I am thrilled she is using the dummy, on the other I feel like the worst mother in the world for having to use one. As for the pump-I guess I will just have to persevere. Trouble is it took me all day just to assemble the thing, now I have to wash it and re-learn it all again!

Dummy is OK Jessi as long as it does not replace feeds. Also make sure that she has no problems fixing to the breast - dummy sucking can cause a bit of confusion in a baby who doesn't know what they are doind B/F wise. When using it I would tend to remove it when you feel that she is sound so that she will wake for feeds. Personally I think a dummy is better than giving formula feeds for a baby who still wants to suck. If it gives you a bit of breathing space that is a good thing.

To all who are using breast pumps to express, remember to massage your breasts first and start the flow with a bit of hand expressing. It will make the pump more fruitful. Also put a sterilised breast shell in your bra on the opposite side you are expressing from so that you catch the drip milk that might be there. All the little amounts you get will add up to a few ounces at the end of the day. I used to collect milk over 48 hours then freeze it as a batch. You will be amazed that all the small amounts over 2 days soon mounts up. When you have expressed, put the milk in the fridge. Next time you express, use a new bottle. You can add milk from one bottle to another when it is the same temperature in the fridge. You can then freeze it in small batches. Some people freeze the milk in a sterilised ice cube tray - 1 cube = 1 oz. You could freeze it when you get 2 oz. Honestly, a supply will soon mount up. HTH.

Jessi, you'll be able to assemble your pump blindfold and with one had tied behind your back eventually

Mears, should I continue trying to express? The only reason I bought the pump was to express on the sore side if I needed to, but after my dismal first attempt I am not heartened to try again! Is it a case of practise makes perfect?
Thanks for the re-assurance re:dummy. She dosen't keep it in her mouth anyway, so I just whip it once she is asleep.

More stuff to stress about!! - My dd's now got to the stage where she'll happily suck at the breast for about half an hour and she must be taking something because I definitely feel a bit emptier, but then she'll refuse to stay latched on however many times I put her on but she'll keep crying for food. Then if I give her her top-up bottle she'll drink loads, like between 2 and 3 oz. She just seems to be wanting the bottle more and more and just wants the breast for comfort.

I'm thinking now of switching to bottles for her main feeds and just giving her as much BM as she'll take in addition. I'm feeling a lot better about this idea than I was when I started this post because now I'm actually considering it rationallly and calmly, whereas before I was only considering it because I was desperate. I'm convinced I'm just not cut out to be a great breastfeeder. I know everyone can do it but you just have to have so much dedication and patience to do it and at the moment I feel like I need that energy to look after her in every other way.

I know your supply changes to meet what your baby wants but does that still apply for very small amounts. Eg, if dd was sucking occasionally through the day and taking the equivalent of one or two feeds from me, could I still keep up that supply indefinitely or would I dry up?

I wish bf'ing had been really easy and I could have just taken to it straight away but that's obviously not going to be the case and seeing as I've done it for 5 weeks, now might just be the time to cut my losses and go to bottles. Also, I feel like I'm bonding much more with dd when I give her the top-up than when I'm bf'ing because with the top-up I feel completely free to focus on her rather than whether she's latched on, how well she's sucking etc etc.

I'd still appreciate some mumsnetters opinions though!

Jessi - you don't need to express if she is feeding from the breast. If you felt that she wasn't feeding well then you could express for extra stimulation. The absolute best way to increase you milk supply is to breastfeed frequently, ensuring she is latched properly. It can be a catch 22 because some babies do not want to be fed 3 hourly and won't suck well when woken. In that instance, I would offer a feed after 3 hours but if she didn't want it I would put her back down and express. The object of expressing is to stimulate the breast more than actually get the milk out. Some women have a psychological bar when expressing and therefore don't get any much milk out then end up thinking they don't have any.

Wobblymum - a baby will always take a bottle after a breastfeed whether they are full enough or not (talking about the ones that will suck from a teat). It is because it is something different - just like you eating a pudding when you thought you were full after the main course.
Your main problem of her being too sleepy to suck has gone. If you have the energy and the confidence you could now wean her off the bottle. You have milk and the way to boost it as you already know is to feed her when she demands it ( did you ever try the domperidone?). I would try and avoid the top ups if you can. Breastfeed her, offerring both sides. If she refuses to take any more then get someone to take her for a walk in the pram or a drive in the car. Do you have help at home. When she is away either sleep or treat your self to a long bath or whatever else you enjoy. She does not need to be permanently attached to you. She will settle without a bottle and your breasts will provide all the milk she needs. May even be worth trying a dummy for her to settle. More frequent feeds will increase your supply over 24-48 hours. The problem with the top ups is that it makes her go longer than she would between breastfeeds, therefore reducing the time on the breast.
If you haven't tried the domperidone ( hoestly I am not the manufacturer), I would do that before switching over to bottles completely. You are so close to cracking it wobblymum, I think it would be a real shame to change to bottles just not because she will end up with no breastfeeds at all.
However, if you decide that you can't face all of the above, you have to do what is best for your sanity. You have done so well persevering up until now and your baby has had the benefit of breastmilk for these past weeks.

hi Wobblymum

Could she have a bit of wind and have you tried offering the other side. She may well also be going through a growth spurt, catching up for lost time.

I fear that if you cut down so much now then your supply will dwindle. It is stimulated by the baby sucking. If you could only keep going for a week or 2 more then I suspect you will find things so much easier. I never really felt we had got it together with ds until 6-8 weeks when I suddenly realised one feed that it was no longer a chore, then faced with the possibilty that I would have to stop as I had an inflammation I knew we would miss it and wanted to persevere.

To keep your supply going if you do choose to switch, and to give you further options later on in case you change your mind, you would need to express. I could only manage it successfully when ds or dd were feeding on the other side. Perhaps she would take EBM in the same way as formula?

You have done so well to overcome your earlier problems it seems a shame to risk it now. Having said that you have already done a good job and you should do what feels best for you and for your dd, but you could find she becomes a fully bottle fed baby very quickly. Also if you do decide to wean do it gradually (1 feed every few days) or you could end up engorged.

Hope this isn't too one sided, good luck,

I try offering her both sides at each feed, because she seems to prefer one so I offer that and then when she gets fed up with that, I offer the other one and then go back to the 1st one. It doesn't seem to keep her interested for much longer though.

Mears - I'd expect her to take a bit anyway but it's the amount that suprises me. It's getting near the amount she'd take anyway if she was only bottle-fed.

It sounds so selfish, but I'm just getting completely fed-up with trying to bf. I seem to spend my whole day doing something to do with bf'ing and it's really starting to depress me. I just want to be able to feed her simply and still have time left in the day to entertain her a bit, get jobs done, maybe get some sleep etc. I just don't seem to have ANY time for anything else at the moment. I know that's part of having a baby anyway, but I feel like I never have a moment spare and it's really starting to get to me.

I really want dd to have the best start, and I know all the benefits of bf'ing, but just thinking about continuing gets me down, whereas the thought of bottle-feeding - seeing loads of food go down her easily and having a nice relaxed cuddle time with her - almost fills me with joy!!!

The only things keeping me bf'ing are the thought of her getting ill because I didn't, the fact that DH wants me to bf and the thought that I'll be letting down all the people who've helped me so far. I know I'll feel guilty if I give up but I just don't know if that's a good enough reason.

At least now I'm not trying to make a decision when I feel desperate and totally stressed out. I'm considering this carefully but I can't get away from the fact that I keep looking for excuses to bottle-feed and get out of the guilt!!

Please don't think you are letting anyone down, after all you have kept going for 5 weeks. Just make sure you weigh up all the options and their implications. So long as you are happy with your considered decision then noone can repproach you.

BTW dd was ill at 8 weeks and 14/15 weeks despite being totally bfed. May be it would have been worse if not, but who knows.

hth

Wobbylymum - i can understand your anguish with wanting to change to bottles. I think if your baby isn't gaining weight and the midwives/health visitors think that formula will make all the difference then you need to do what's best for your baby. My eldest use to literally breastfeed every 45 mins for only a few minutes at a time as she'd fall asleep - hence she'd be hungry again very soon, i became desperately unhappy and tired but felt so much pressure to continue breastfeeding. When you say you've tried expressing do you mean with a hand pump or by yourself? if not a handpump then maybe try this as i found them to be very good but initially it can take quite a while to get enough milk as your body needs to adapt to producing whatever amount it is that you want it to at the time you want it to. I was very cackhanded at breastfeeding for about the first 2 months but as the baby gets older it does get easier and i then continued for a year (much to my amazment) You've definitely got to do what you and your baby are happy with otherwise you'll just end up really miserable. You're no failure either way

All the pro-breast feeding advice makes it sound like bottle-feeding is terrible for your baby. One article I read made it sound as though giving your baby formula was almost the same as forcing full-fat milk down them!

I was really happy when I started mixed feeding because it seemed to be the perfect solution but now it's highlighting to me how easy and relaxing bottle-feeding is and how troublesome bf'ing is (for me). And I know I've got a touch of PND and any stress seems to make everything 100 times worse, so something easy and relaxing is very welcome at the moment. I just can't get over the feeling that I'm letting dd down badly if I don't carry on with bf'ing. I haven't even got a really good reason to stop. My breasts and nipples feel fine, I'm not taking any medication that would force me to stop, so am I just being selfish?

Does anyone know exactly how 'bad' bottle-feeding is compared to bf'ing? Is it just a few percentage difference in statistics or is it as bad as feeding your baby from unsterilised bottles??? (Ok, I know that's a bit extreme!!!)

The advice I'd give myself if I was someone else (??) would be to keep trying and it would probably sort itself out but I'm just having a really hard time taking that advice. I want to bottle-feed but I feel like I'm just being selfish and should give myself a kick up the a** and stop being silly.

mears - forgot to say, haven't tried domperidone yet, haven't had a chance to get any and haven't trusted my mum to be able to get it for me!! Going to make a special effort tomorrow to get some.

Wobblymum - this is silly, bottle feeding is not "bad" for your baby - you are giving your baby sustanance and love.

When you decided to have a child with your partner did you sit down and get him to fill in a questionaire detailing whether there was a history of mental illness or heart attacks in his family ?? These are just as likely to have an affect on your babys future health as breast feeding or not.

Yes, breast feeding is nature's way of feeding your baby and your baby is more likely not to suffer certain illness because they are breast fed but as Disraeli said " there are lies, damn lies and statistics ". It doesn't mean that they WILL get those illness's.

Mumsnet is great - Mears and others with experience are fab and helped me when I was trying to breastfeed. But for me it didn't work out, I actually wanted to and had started to enjoy it, but other factors made it difficult - lack of support, DS1 losing the plot, pure exhaustion, what I felt was limited supply.

But this time round I have felt no guilt about my decision and am having so much more fun with my baby. By emphasising that it will get easier at 6/8 weeks etc....I think people are helping to load the guilt on which you obviously feel already.

For the avoidance of doubt I am not having a "go" at other posters but trying to put the other side of the story.

If you want a compromise, why don't you take Mears excellent advice - get the drug that she recommends, get some support, go to bed for 2 days, feed every 3 hours and if it doesn't work out then you can move to bottle feeding knowing that you have really given it your best shot.

Best of luck and please dump the guilt - you have nothing to feel guilty about.

PS: I was bottlefed and have the constitution of an ox.

Agree with Kaz here although the guilt thing is a tricky thing to combat. The advice you have been given and the information you have read is not to make you feel guilty - it is to give you inforrmation about breastfeeding and how to get it established. It can work but at what cost?
You are the only one who can make the decision about what to do regarding feeding your baby. I have always said that if a woman gets to the point where she does not enjoy her baby, then breastfeeding is not the thing to do. If, however, she will be upset by stopping, then the advice and support is there on how to continue.
I think that by giving yourself a goal, such as 3 days time - if it does not work you can say plan what to do instead of seeing B/F as a continual uphill struggle. Things may have improved in that time and then you reassess the situation. Do you continue for another 3 days or do you decide to give bottles with all breastfeeds or no breastfeeds at all? Only you will know how you feel at that time. Please do not take on guilt - it is not a requirement of stopping breastfeeding. I truly admire you for your efforts and is you who will decide if enough is enough, no-one will think any less of you. Best wishes for whatever you decide to do, mearsx

kaz33 - you're totally right (of course!). This is why I love mumsnet - it's really easy for me to get caught up in what a few people say and stress myself out over it but then when I come on here and get good advice from loads of people it balances out again.

I suppose it's just because when I was pg I heard so much "breast is best" advice and almost nothing about bottle feeding, so now I almost feel like I HAVE to breastfeed.

You're right, starting tomorrow I'll try 2 days of really trying hard to breastfeed and make that work and then if it doesn't work I'll swop and eat loads of chocolate to cover the guilt!!!

At the moment I keep getting caught up in the 'facts' and forgetting common sense. DD seems perfectly happy with a bottle and hasn't had any reaction to the formula and since introducing it she suddenly seems to be thriving in every sense, rather than just getting by like she was before.

Wobblymum - sounds fab, can you really do two days in bed ? Heavenly, if you have the support do it - if nothing else you will get some rest !!

Let us know how you get on.

Why not at least try the Domperidone (sold under the name Motilum IIRC - mears?) first so at least you can tell yourself you tried everything. Just pop to the chemist or get dh to do it for you. Breastfeeding Can magically get better after six weeks or so but for some people it does seem very hard. You must do what you need to do for yourself and if you are truly unhappy and have done everything, then you at least can make the change feel confident with your choice.

Best of luck, honey. I really feel for you - I feel chained and knackered even though I CAN breastfeed easily.

Mears, I love you madly. I've found a hot shower gets them fountaining as well - should I do a hot flannel before Applying The Device?

kaz33 - I should be so lucky, that would be heaven!!! But I might be able to manage 2 days without having to go out anywhere (except chemist and Asda), and spend most of the time sitting on the sofa feeding. Any recommendations on easy (nutritious!!!) stuff to eat that can just be grabbed in a spare moment between baby cries? I'm already eating loads of rice (cooked in a big batch and stuffed in the fridge, bananas and ham sandwiches. I've forgotten who on here is obsessed with cake as a bf'ing snack!!! But I'm really trying to eat healthily so NO-ONE encourage me to eat chocolate or cake (as if I need encouragement!!) and definitely not chocolate cake!!!! Lol

I'll let you know how my 2 days goes!!! By the way, does the domperidone work immediately??

Sounds like a good idea Motherinferior. A glass (or two) of wine helps too

Wobblymum, many women notice a difference in a day or two of taking domperidone, some take longer. Do not deprive yourself of chocolate and you definatey should have a relaxing alcoholic beverage of your choice, unless ofcourse you are tee total. I am obviously not recommending getting plastered but a couple of drinkw will do no harm. Chill

I've just been reading some articles about breastfeeding on another POPULAR site (don't think I should mention which one) and IMHO they were so condescending and santimonious (wow, big words - my brain must be slowly returning!!)!!! I just couldn't believe it. Now I remember why I started all this with the idea that bf'ing would be plain sailing and why I have so much guilt about considering giving it up!!!

These articles assumed that the only possible problems you could get with bf'ing were not enough milk and cracked nipples. As everyone on here knows, that's definitely not true. Also they assumed that if you had problems, all you needed was a quick chat with a bf'ing counsellor or a midwife and then everything would be rosy.

They also said that the only reason formula was seen as a satisfactory alternative was because of advertising by the formula milk companies!!! They quoted one vegan member who said (about formula) 'cow's milk is for calves'. There was loads more offputting 'advice' but I think I've done enough ranting!!!

Reading these now, knowing how hard bf'ing is, they just make me so angry!! Why don't these people remember that the phrase is 'breast is best' NOT 'formula is worst'. Bf'ing should definitely be encouraged as much as possible but if you decide you want or need to bottlefeed, you shouldn't be made to feel like a bad mother.

I'm still going to try to get bf'ing sorted but if I do decide to bottlefeed it will be because I need to in order to make me a better mother, to feed my baby better and allow me to be more relaxed - which anyone could see will help her.

Sorry, I have to stop ranting now but maybe so many people wouldn't get PND if they didn't have people making them feel guilty for making their own choices!!!