I want to give up!!

[wobblymum]

I can't get to grips with breastfeeding and I feel like just switching to formula now.

I was in hospital for 2 weeks because dd had bad jaundice and Strep B infection. She lost a fir bit of weight because of it and would sleep most of the time and wouldn't feed well at all. The midwives weren't much help and I left hospital no better off in breastfeeding than when she was first born. Now I've been home a week and I still can't breastfeed very well. DD hasn't put on any weight like she should have and the health visitor says shes quite worried. I'm trying to top her up with a bottle at night but that doesn't seem to be working too well but it's better than nothing. I can't express, it just never seems to work.

I'm having to force myself to eat and drink to help my milk supply because I just feel sick all the time. DD hardly ever wants to spend much time at the breast, so she can't possibly be getting loads of food. I try to keep putting her on every 3 hours, as suggested by the midwife, but she just wants to sleep and I never seem to be able to get time to rest or eat in between.

It's really getting me down and I just feel like bottle feeding would be the perfect solution but I want to breastfeed and I feel guilty just about the idea, because breast is best. Also I feel like I'll really regret it if I give up now but I don't feel like I can carry on - I just feel stuck in the middle.

Has anyone been through a similar situation? Please help, I just don't know what to do. I feel useless at getting the position and latching on right, even though I've had loads of advice and demonstrations and I feel like I'm not doing it long enough or often enough. I'm trying, but I just get so exhausted.

Thanks everyone. I rang the BFN and apparently the counsellor at my breastfeeding workshop is the local BFN counsellor, which explains why she's the only one who's given me advice similar to the advice on here. But the woman on the phone was really nice and helpful and suggested a few more things to help - little things that you easily forget like when you've got a spare moment, make loads of sandwiches (or get someone else to do it for you), and then you've got them in the fridge for something quick to eat. And she said that even though I can't expect to get the baby into a feeding routine, I should start a strict routine of as soon as she's finished feeding, eating something small and having a drink, then lying down and resting. I'll have to see if I can keep up with that!! They were also really encouraging about keeping up with breastfeeding but also reminded me that even if it doesn't work out, I've done it for over 3 weeks so she's had a good start.

Last night she fed for a while and for the first time in a while my breasts actually felt like they'd emptied a bit, which was a good sign. Now I've just got to make sure they keep filling up again.

I'm going to the breastfeeding workshop tomorrow and dd will get weighed again, so I'll know if things are working out better or not. Hopefully she'll have put on a couple of ounces, I really hope she has. If not it'll just seem like I've been wasting my time.

I'm trying to top her up in the evening because that's what I was told to do but last night, as usual, she only took an ounce and a half when I've been told to try for between 2 and 3 ounces.

In hospital I was told to start leaving her and see if she woke herself up but she'd regularly go for at least 5 hours and once she went for 8 before I decided I had to wake her up. So now I'm waking her every 3 hours and I don't really want to leave her because I think she'll just sleep for way too long.

I haven't been able to get out to get any domperidone yet - does it work really well?

Also, I do feed her with just her nappy on to keep her awake, and I tickle her feet and ears, play with her hands etc etc but when she decides to fall asleep, nothing will stop her!

Thanks again for all the support and advice, I'll keep posting about how it's going.

My ds was really sleepy as well - not helped (or even caused!) by the jaundice he had quite badly when he was couple of days old.

I used to do everything to make him wake up for feeds - undress him, tickle his feet, wet cotton wool balls, even drops of water in his ears! He would still go back to sleep! The little sod even learnt to PRETEND to suck (complete with jaw action all the way up to his ear!) Plus he was really slow feeder, which didn't help. I felt like I was spending my entire life feeding - my bum even got sore from all the sitting!

It sounds like your baby is a reasonably quick feeder, so that is already an advantage.

My ds started off on the 91st centile and then porgressively dropped throught the centiles (although he never actually LOST weight, beyond the inital post birth weight loss), before trundling along just UNDERNEATH the growth charts for a while. He was checked by the consultant paediatrician and eventually we all agreed that he was obviously thriving, so forget about the growth charts as he was following his own unique version! By the time he was 3 months old, he was creeping back into the charts and gradually moved up to about the 25th by the time he was 6months old.

He's now, at nearly three, about average, judging by those around him. I've no idea how much he weighs, but at his 2 year check he was on about the 50th centile.

I got fantastic support from the bf support group at the maternity hospital - run by two of the midwives there, who were also bf counsellors. I got help every week with his latch and eventually we worked out a non-standard "letter box" technique which seemed to work a bit better.

When he was about 2 weeks old and still hadn't regained birth weight (I think that took 6 weeks!), they lent me an electric pump and encouraged me to (first of all) top up after every feed and (later) give every second feed as EBM. That didn't change his rate of weight gain (minimal!), so eventually I stopped bothering - although I maintained the habit of expressing (with an hand pump) as I was going back to work when he was 4 months old, and it also gave me a bit of freedom and allowed dh to share in the feeding.

They also encouraged me to wake him at night, as he was perfectly happy to sleep through, almost from birth! When they suggested every 2 hours, I did every 3, when they extended it to 3 hours, I did every 4, and when then said 4, I stopped bothering! It would sometimes take me over half an hour to get him latched on (per side!), he would then take up to 45 minutes per side (although I'm convinced that he was actually sleeping for part of it). I never got the "proper" signals of a "satiated" baby - he never came off of his own accord - I always had to pull him off - although I took the view that if I could pull him off without "breaking the seal", then he wasn't really latched on anyway.

I went on to bf for over 12 months. That included a skiing holiday away from him when he was 6 months, during which time he was fed on expressed milk and I filled the chalet freezer with sachets of expressed milk (I even expressed on the slopes and once, in bad weather, even IN a mountain restaurant - although dh says I managed to do it so discreetly, he's not sure anyone would even have noticed! )

One thing my Mum told me was how different my brother and I were feeding - she was so worried that my brother wasn't getting enough, as he was only on for 5 minutes (whereas I had been much slower) that she weighed him before and after feeds - and realised he was getting loads! (db was a real porky as a baby!)

I suppose the point of my long ramble is to let you know that you're not alone in struggling and, most importantly to

a) ... ignore the scales. Go by what you dd is "telling" you - both by her nature - is she happy and alert (ie obviously thriving) and by her nappies - does she have plenty of wet nappies? (bf babies don't necessarily have many crappy nappies)

b) ... have confidence in yourself. Yes, you'll forget loads of things and it can takes AGES to get bf established, but take things one day at a time.

c) .... RELAX! Enjoy your baby! She's only this young once!

PS I forgot to mention - it's easier said than done, ignoring the scales. I developed a morbid fascination in what ds weighed each week, even though I knew he was fine and that the charts didn't "work" for him. It helped once I went back to work, so couldn't make the bf support group very often (even though my boss was happy for me to go - it just took too much time out of the day).

I also avoided HVs! .... just in case I got one who was into the growth charts and would ignore the healthy baby in front of her. But then, I was still getting excellent support from the hospital, so didn't really need a HV.

Thanks Janz - I'm already obsessed with the scales because I felt like it was the only way to tell if she was thriving but you're right - I should pay more attention to her.

I think my dd has learnt to pretend sometimes - I can be there for an hour and she still be just as hungry and I'll still be just as full.

I posted this on the hunger or wind B/F thread and thought you might find it helpful wobblymum. It highlights what a baby does when feeding.

Watch the way that he sucks and listen. When he first goes on he will suck rapidly waiting for the let down of milk. When that happens he will slow down and take deep rhyhmical sucks where you will be able to hear him swallowing the milk. He will pause every so often because the milk comes down in jets with spaces in between. Towards the end of the feed, he will start to make 'flutter' sucks which are not deep and are a faster than the ones before. He will keep stopping and starting. He will be getting small amounts of hind milk at this stage and is stimluating the breast to produce more milk at future feeds. However, you can take him off at this point if you feel he has been on for ages, because he has probably had enough. Babies should spit the nipple out when they have had enough, but some just like to suck. My ds 1 hardly ever detached himself.
When you have the time you can sit and feed for long periods. However, by watching how they feed you get to know when they are just 'flutter 'sucking rather than feeding.
Watch him closely for a few feeds today and see what his pattern is.

Brilliant post mears - why did no one tell me that 10 months ago? ds never wants to come off - he's got more suction than a dyson.

Keep it up wobblymum, I have a feeling you'll turn the corner today or tomorrow.

thats what I said bobsmum. No one tells you anything relly bearing in mind you are doing it all day and night

wobblymum,

Please don't feel discouraged if she hasn't put on much weight. My 2 both put on in fits and starts for the first 2 months (spiralling down those infernal charts) and I only really felt I got the hang of it with ds(my 1st) at around 7 weeks. Both were very slightly jaundiced, and ds sleepy as a result, for which I really beat myself up first time round but as it also happened to dd who fed well straight off I was able to feel much better about it.

She is probably getting enough but I wonder if her behaviour is because she is thirsty (has it been hot where you are) rather than hungry and she is after foremilk to quench her thirst. (Mears, can weight gain get affected by hotter weather?) Presumably she has not got dehydrated so I would take comfort from this that she is getting enough.

hope all goes well at today's session and you find the support you need, good luck

Mears - your post was an interesting reminder of what to look for. Ds used to APPEAR to be sucking correctly (long sucks, jawline moving) - but we finally realised by listening and CLOSE observation that he wasn't actually SWALLOWING!! That's one of the reasons why I was encouraged to give him EBM for a while.

The little sod, I mean darling, also used to start flutter sucking or even just plain falling asleep, but if you started pulling him off, would start pretending to feed again. I eventually decided that he was getting plenty of time on my boobs and that if he wanted more sucking he could use a dummy, which we did for short periods until he was 6 months old, when I stopped using it as I didn't want to have battles with him later.

Mears, that's really useful - my dd just keeps on slurping away till I think I'm going to go bonkers.

WM, lots of love. The rest of us June/Julyers are just about keeping going, but it's a close thing sometimes! xxxxx

Oh, and both of mine have to pull away and squeal and weep as the milk lets down (especially with left boob) and as they pull away several jets of milk shoot across the room...

oh and me too! Glam eh?

I know; I'm not embarrassed about b/fing anywhere, but do feel this is perhaps a little bit more lactation than the average observer can deal with.

Should return to the ahem bosom of my family now.

wobblymum - you've had loads of great advice here but I'd like to second what others are saying. It sounds like you and your daughter are doing fine, it really does. Could I suggest you do let her sleep for up to 6 hours as Mears suggested - she might be upset because she's tired not hungry! I had a very sleepy, jaundiced, prem. caesarean baby and she slept and slept, if I woke her she was too sleepy to feed so I just left her to sleep for as long as she needed and we got along fine. She very quickly hit the 99.6 percentile! (has gone down a bit since).

Wow, loads of nice posts again! DD got weighed yesterday and she'd put on 2 ounces since Monday so I'm over the moon now. It's not much but at least it shows things are getting better! The bf workshop was really helpful and my HV said she'd pop into it to see whether dd had put on any weight.

The HV came in and then started discussing with me what to do in the next week. That was really funny because the bf counsellor disagreed with her and they had to spend about 10 mins just discussing their difference of opinion! The HV thought I should be trying to top dd up with formula after every feed, whereas the bf counsellor thought that was a terrible idea and suggested trying twice a day, which they finally decided was the best idea. It would have been once a day but they thought she should take about 3 ounces and she won't take more than an ounce and a half at once so it had to be twice a day.

Now I've got a week to carry on and then she'll get weighed again and if she's put on at least 5 ounces I'll be really really happy.

She definitely flutter sucks in the evening, she seems to just like being on me. Thanks for explaining about that - I was wondering how she could be on for so long, looking like she was sucking but not actually eating that much.

She really seems to be picking up now and I think it's all down to finally getting some good advice that I can use instead of 20 different midwife opinions! And now of course I'm not stressing out so much!

The bf counsellor said that even though she was born 3 days late by dates, she was behaving like a prem baby so the problems might all have been down to her not being quite as matured as they thought. At least that means it's not all my fault!

Big thanks to everyone - if it wasn't for the bf counsellor and everyone giving me advice on here, I'm sure I would have just given up and put her on bottles.

Glad to hear things are improving. Keep having a go at expressing again, it will work, honestly. It is more a case of mind over matter. Expressing helps boost your supply and also you would be able to top up with ebm.

I am posting a link for a booklet on B/F. page 10 shows you how to express.
booklet

Well done wobblymum - you are getting there

Forgot to add - do not despair if she does not put on 5 oz in a week. She might gain less. The 2 oz gain she had is fine. It can be a few weeks before she actually starts to make bigger gains.

I would have been over the moon if ds had gained 2oz a week! That was a GOOD week for him! Some weeks it was nothing!

I checked my red book this morning and it was SEVEN weeks before ds regained his birth weight!

I agree with Mears - without putting pressure on yourself, why not give expressing another go. I started off with am electric pump - and although I managed to express plenty I did find that it "tired" my nipples and was happeir when I moved on to the hand pump (and still got plenty off).

I personally never got on with pumping on the "other" boob while ds was on the other - too much of a faff. I used to get a lot off a wee bit after ds's morning feed - the hormones mean that is a good time for milk production.

wobblymum,

So pleased things are improving for you. It really will get easier and hopefully you will feel less stressed as you gain in confidence. Stick with the bf counsellor's advice and at least if you are concerned in the meantime you have someone whose advice you trust to ring.

take care

wobblymum - sooooo impressed with your determination and perseverence on this. I really hope your dd stumbles across this thread in years to come and sees just how much effort you've put into giving her a brilliant start in life. She's already had a lot more breastmilk than loads of other babies her age so you've done amazingly well - keep it up and stand your ground!

Slight extra problem now! I've been doing the evening top ups as the bf counsellor suggested but both Friday night and yesterday night dd happily took an ounce and a half (then flatly refused to have a drop more) and was sucking at the teat really well so I don't think she took in much air if at all. But after I'd winded her and put her down, she brought up what I think is a huge part of her feed. It went all over one side of her bodysuit and quite a bit on the blanket, so I don't mean a tiny possett.

The formula is the same - Aptamil and I think I'm better than I used to be at making sure she doesn't take air in at the same time, so I don't think it's wind. She doesn't seem colicky, so I can't really figure out what it is. She doesn't seem ill either.

I thought she might be full and couldn't keep it all down but then why would she drink that amount if she didn't want it?

I'm going to the baby clinic anyway tomorrow so I'm going to ask about it then but does anyone on here have any opinions why she's suddenly started bringing so much up?

wm

Wouldn't worry too much unless this happens every time. Could just be trapped air between the bfeed and bottle feed. The odd vomit is not really going to cause problems and they can easily eat more than they can handle. She may even be better with expressed milk as a top up.

Do you really need to go to the clinic tomorrow - fine if its for a bit of moral support and socialising but not if they do a weighing and it is not yet as good as you hope for, causing further anxiety. Just think it would be better to wait a full week to measure the difference.

You sound far more positive already.

All the best

Babies - they are pukey things. Are you happier now?

Wobblymum, glad things are going better now. Concerning dd bringing up her feed, my dd1 did this all the time, after every feed (I was breastfeeding she would usually suck for up to an hour!!! - only with your first are you ever this inept!) After literally weeks of this happening I finally figured out it was because she was taking too much milk in during her feed, and was simply bringing up what she didn't need.

If your dd is putting on weight, then don't worry about the puking. It could be she doesn't need the top-ups. She probably keeps drinking away because she likes sucking, then brings up what she doesn't need afterwards. They just don't know when to stop sometimes!

Thanks everyone, I do feel a bit happier now. It's great to come on here and be able to get some support.

I'm feeling so much more relaxed doing the mixed feeding - at least I can see DD is getting a certain amount of food per day.

Still trying to stimulate my milk, some days one breast is huge, other days it doesn't want to fill up at all. Other breast always seems a bit empty whatever I do. I've bought some domperidone but I'm not sure whether to use it because I don't want the huge breast to get any fuller, else it may just explode (!). Tried expressing, still no luck, even when I am huge. Must be me!

By the way, has anyone kept up mixed feeding for a long time? I like it because it seems to be the best of both worlds but I'm worried I'll drift into bottle feeding alone and my milk will dry up again.

What did mums do in the days before the internet? I don't think I'd have survived the last couple of weeks without mumsnetters to help me out.