If you have an arsey comment about breastfeeding

[SunglassesPolarBear]

come and say it here please, let's get them all out in the open and in one place.
So far today I have seen a comment along the lines of "don't know why you bothered" to someone who was please to have reached 6 months of excl bf, and an incredibly rude and unhelpful comment on a thread started by a woman who was worried that her supply would be affected by her DH giving their 10 day old a bottle of formula. Snotty comments (whether to bfers or ffers) are NOT WELCOME on those sorts of threads, so go on, offload here.

Oh, before we start, some myths I'd like to bust:

• Improved health outcomes of bf babies are not down to social class - that has been accounted for
• People bfing past 3 weeks / 6 months / a year are not doing it just for their own sakes
• It's not only OK to bf in public "if it's done discreetly"

erm..sure more will come up

That's fab Divvy, my DH is a bit like that too, utterly in support of me, but always positioning himself between me and FIL!

gabygirl - I knew I would annoy someone by supporting both FF and BF.

I think your comment does illustrate though the axis around which the entire BF and FF arguement revolves. Some women who can BF feel they are doing something somehow better for their baby than a woman who is FF because, as you have said, they feel breast milk is 'better' and more 'complete' than formula.

The BF versus FF debate really does hang on one group of women who FF being made to feel inferior to another group of women who BF. Not all FF women feel inferior and not all BF women feel superior of course but that is the underlying discourse contained in the judgey comments I read on MN and elsewhere and the source of so much pressure and guilt some women feel who cannot BF.

My DW rejected the entire debate (she felt she was being pressured by some BF zealots among the community midwife team) and just did what suited her and DSs best. She did both BF and FF as many people do.

There is no need for adverse comments to anyone about the choice they make. It really is an empty debate.

My XP never stood between me and the adoring public when i was BF after i yelled at him in the middle of a shopping centre that he needent stand guard as BF was about as sexy as having your head shoved under the duvet after he had farted.

He annoyed me half to death....you're not going to get them out HERE are you?? ... put his mind at rest when he realised all everyone could see from the front was the back of DS' head.

Bless.

Sorry ABetaDad but it's not just a feeling that BF mothers have that "breast milk is 'better' and more 'complete' than formula. "
That is a fact. I know it might upset people to hear it but we can't shy away from the facts to protect people's feelings. I'm not saying that this gives any BF to act superior or criticise someone for FF but I do think it's counterproductive to be trying to increase breastfeeding rates and encourage more people to breastfeed while at the same time saying "Don't worry if you didn't - formula is just as good/not that different anyway." Where is the incentive to breastfeed then? It also undermines the efforts of those who have struggled and persevered with breastfeeding.

bubbleymummy, I agree. No one needs to feel superior as a parent for feeding one way or the other, still less make other people feel inferior!

But ABetaDad talks about some mothers 'feeling' they are doing 'something somehow better' for their baby and disparages this.

It's not 'somehow' better. It's not 'a feeling'. Breastmilk doesn't 'feel' better. It is the normal milk for mothers to give to their babies - and its effect is better than formula.

It's only an 'empty' debate if you think infant feeding doesn't matter!

It's not the only thing that matters - but it does matter

PARP.

mrsjammi

Time to tell them you're feeling hurt?

If they don't realise, then wouldn't they want to know if you were hurt....if they care about you?

The phrase 'Aren't you feeding her yourself?' from bf mums pissed me off when I was bottle feeding.

No-one made me feel bad for bf. By the way Stealth, I know the class thing is factored into studies of health effects etc but I think the class thing is relevant re comments you are likely to get.

For example, lots of NCT middle class mums in, say Islington Borders cafe all bf and no-one bats an eye. Don't think anyone would dare to comment but have had and overheard unsupportive comments re ff. And in some local groups (I live in a broadly working class area) lots of young mums who wouldn't dream of bf and very vocal about that too. Of course I am generalising a bit but this is a real observation. There is a certain breed of confident, bf middle class mother who can can across as smug and critical when this subject comes up. In my experience that's where the class thing rears its irritating head. Have a friend who couldn't wait to get to 6 months to give up bf and said there were 'raised eyebrows' in her NCT coffee group every time someone stopped - even after 6 months which isn't bad. She said to be anything other than delighted by bf was a taboo.

A more understanding, less judgmental attitude on both sides - for those who feel they need to interfere with other people either way - would be helpful.

calling women who BF "BFing mafia/nazis" etc....that's a good one!

Thankfully I haven't been on the receiving end of any RL comments, other than things like "how do you know he/she is getting enough?" from my MIL. But I stopped at 10 months with DD and DS is only 6mo so there's time yet!!

and I knowe SPB didn't intend this to be yet another debate, but ABetaDad, I have to agree with others that it isn't a feeling; it's a biological and scientific fact that something intended by nature forfeeding one's baby is infinately better than milk from another mammal that has been added to and changed and mucked about with to make it more digestible and nutricious.

I also wonder why you hang around the BFing boards making silly comments that always get you jumped on. You are the only dad to do it afaik (excepting those that come on looking for advice for their DPs) and I can't help wonder what motivates you to even be interested or whether you just do it to cause trouble?

LackaDaISYcal - I did wonder when that question / comment would come up.

"I also wonder why you hang around the BFing boards making silly comments that always get you jumped on. You are the only dad to do it afaik (excepting those that come on looking for advice for their DPs) and I can't help wonder what motivates you to even be interested or whether you just do it to cause trouble?"

Well because I happen to be interested as a social scientist in a serious academic sense in the way that physical scientific facts (e.g biology, chemistry, physics) are presented to society and how society receives them and interprets them. I was involved very closely in the climate change debate for many years and saw very very similar extreme debates being had in that field.

Here is why I am interested and why I know as much if not more than you about it:

1. I have had two children and my DW did BF and FF and we went through the debate very carefully and were treated badly by so called 'midwife' advisors when we asked questions about BF and FF;

1. Me and my DW are research scientists by training and worked in MRC immunology labs so we know how and why the human body works to the biochemical level and especially the development of the immune system in the newborn child;

3: Me and my DW have unusually also trained to PhD level in social sciences including advanced statistics so we know how bad the statistical data is that is presented as fact in this and many other medical debates -it is quite frankly shockingly bad;

1. I have fed and observed literally thousands of animals consuming breast and formula milk as a farmer so I know how it impacts newborn mammals at a practical level at different stages of development;

1. Finally, my DW does not come on MN because she has Ménière's disease which makes it very difficult for her to sit and read long threads of type with her head held still for very long. She has to use her eyes to balance. So the comments you read are also often hers but I type them.

I never come here to annoy or criticise anyone.

Does that answer your question?

And is it your opinion that breastmilk has no advantages over formula milk (as implied by bf-ing mothers feeling they are 'somehow doing something better')? Because that's a pretty eccentric conclusion, isn't it?

pretty succinctly ABD

but if you are a scientist then I fail to see how you can say that just because you and your DW chose to "reject the debate" doesn't mean that that debate doesn't exist and that it is only a woman's perception, not a scientific fact, that BM is better than FM. Fine you did what you both felt was best for you and your DC, which is all we can do as parents, but it doesn't negate the fact that human milk is intended for human babies and as such the "best" thing for them from a physiological and immunological point of view.

but, I don't think this thread is the place for debating that issue; it's not, I'm sure, what SPB intended from her OP.

abetadad
I am currently training to be a breastfeeding support counselor by the nhs. Would like to ask a question. The first thing we learned about breastfeeding was the known benefits which I shall now list.
It is estimated that every 1%increase in breastfeeding rates at 13 weeks results in a £500,000 saving from health budgets which could be better used for other areas of the nhs that are understaffed e.g midwifery.
ottis media: 50% more cases in ff children
gastroenteritis: 6 times more likely in ff child
respiratory illness:double number of infections in first 7 years of life
u.t.i ;5 times more likely in ff child
necrotising enterocolitis: 10 times more likely in premature ff child
juvenile onset diabetes; twice risk if cow products introduced in first two months of life
asthma eczema,food allergy;3 ff to 1 bf child affected
maloccusion of teeth: more ff problems
childhood obesity; by 8 months ff baby consumes 30,000 more calories than bf baby
teenages; ff as babies found to have increased blood chelesterol and glucose levels and higher blood pressure measurements
also ff is very unfriendly to environment
estimated 3000 tonnes of sanitary waste saved if uk has equivalent rates to sweden. But I find it hard to believe that someone who has studied the effects of bm would say there is no difference between bm and ff. I would like to state I don't believe ff mums should be made to feel inferior or are suggesting that they will get sick I am only putting forward the facts that were given to me in training.
source www.babyfriendly.org.com

ABetadad - Being called bf mafia for being a midwife who asks people what their feeding choice is, and when they say 'bottle' asking if they would like a quick run down of the bonus benefits of bf.

What is it people want? I don't know, and I have been around 11 years.
a) Better support, better information to make informed decisions about their feeding choice. Help during the early, sometimes tortuous weeks. if this is not given then the services have failed the family by a lack of insight , compassion and support. Midwives been called some horrible things for not giving enough sound help to mums trying to feed.

b) To not have their feeding method asked about, to not be questioned in anyway about their level of knowledge in the area, to not be approached on this topic at all. To do any of these is takes as bf mafia action, it is ramming it down throats, it is not understanding the reasons people may choose to ff, it is judgey.

How can I do my job? I am dammed as mafia if I do , and a stupid unhelpful bitch if I don't.

Offensive term : breast feeding mafia.

sorry just reread you post and an gobsmacked by your arrogance "why I know as much if not more than you about it" .

You don't know what I do or don't know or to what level I am interested/trained/training in this area. One thing though, when I have made an incorrect statement or given the wrong advice regarding BFing and have been corrected by those that know more than I do, I have the grace to admit that mistake, learn from it and move on, whereas you seem to spout the same old misconceptions/half truths and dare I say it, crap nonsense time and time again.

SallyJay

Do you feed them yourself is a silly question either way. It makes me want to give a cutting reply in the same way I want to about' is he good' about a week old baby.

tree - good midwifery care is not to ask people how they plan to feed, sorry. You do not need to pose the question antenatally and Baby Friendly practice is to discuss feeding without ever directly 'ticking a box' about choices.

All mothers - whatever their feeding intention antenatally - need to know information, and of course you would not persist if someone asked you to stop, there is no reason why anyone should not know the facts.

Similarly, all babies and mothers should be helped to be skin to skin post delivery. This applies routinely. Mothers can opt out, if they wish, but they need to know why it's a good thing.

So there need be no opportunity for anyone to criticise you for asking about feeding intention

As I've said before ,being one who has bf and ff'd , isn't ANTI either and understands that breast is best, I would still like to see this put on tins of formula (maybe written more eloquently );HEALTH WARNING-whatever your reasons for turning to formula,someone "well-meaning"(sceptical)will truly make you feel like sh*t for using this product. I was going to follow that with now it's but true.

Abetadad - all the study in the world cannot change the fact that bm got you to where you are today. You are a mammal and at some point your family has relied on it.

It got the human race (and every single other mammal) where it is today.

That said science has done good work in trying to find out more about bm and nutrition for humans. Evidence based practice is something I belive in.

It is a shame we need evidence to prove bm is an ok thing for babies. How do people think we got here?
That is not to say ff is the work of the devil. It is right in many situations, for the individuals involved, living in the society we do.

Do you feed him yourself - no he hold his own bottle.

Is he goo - he's alright but obviously I would have prefered one better.

Usually stumps them!

Why not bring into the "debate" stem cells, which are in breastmilk, which isnt in ff.

Tik tok - I have to ask when the baby is there though don't I? I have to ask so I can get the bottles sterile or offer assistance with the first bf. It is inevitable.

No, I def feel demoralised and judges and incapable of doing a good enough job. Torn in too many different directions.