If you have an arsey comment about breastfeeding

[SunglassesPolarBear]

come and say it here please, let's get them all out in the open and in one place.
So far today I have seen a comment along the lines of "don't know why you bothered" to someone who was please to have reached 6 months of excl bf, and an incredibly rude and unhelpful comment on a thread started by a woman who was worried that her supply would be affected by her DH giving their 10 day old a bottle of formula. Snotty comments (whether to bfers or ffers) are NOT WELCOME on those sorts of threads, so go on, offload here.

Oh, before we start, some myths I'd like to bust:

• Improved health outcomes of bf babies are not down to social class - that has been accounted for
• People bfing past 3 weeks / 6 months / a year are not doing it just for their own sakes
• It's not only OK to bf in public "if it's done discreetly"

erm..sure more will come up

Most officially-supported bf promotion and education is already targetted at low initiation areas - has been for years. That's why you'll see peer supporter programmes in these areas, and ring-fenced public health moneys for bf support directed there, too.

I have no confidence in schools being able to do this job at all - though bf should be part of routine PSHE, biology and other subject areas.

Chulita, people are often told not to talk about the health effects of infant feeding, in order to protect the feelings of mothers who ended up formula feeding.

My arsey comment ...

I was FF and in all honesty am glad I've never had my mums boob in my mouth

Re how to encourage mums to bf. Grass roots.
I saw sex and the porn industry series the other day. All the teenagers were busy having sex. all watching atleast an hour of porn a week - christ, that was a shock to me ! and they all choose hairless willies, enormous, as the norm. They all choose plastic breasts as the norm. the others were "vile", "saggy".
I just found the whole thing really really .... sad, basically.
If that is the norm. Bf doesn't stand a chance.

I saw that Oblomov

If teens do think that plastic grapefruit style boobs are the norm they may be v. self conscious about their own healthy shaped breasts.

They might also think it gross when they see a flash of a real woman's breast when she is feeding her little one...

I think it's a mistake to think all our attitudes to our bodies are fixed in our teenage years.

People change as they mature, and what seems gross and vile age 14 is not the same at 24...or even 18.

"people are often told not to talk about the health effects of infant feeding, in order to protect the feelings of mothers who ended up formula feeding" - agree with Tik Tok etc that this is stupid - after all lots of mothers have ff one baby and then bf the next due to more info and better support - or better luck - or vice versa of course.

When I ended up ff I found the research calmed me down. I believed breast milk was the best food - and still do - but when bf didn't work as I'd thought it would I was full of anxiety and nameless undirected dreads about the horrors of formula. Reading the research made me realise how small the risks are for formula that is carefully prepared and that was a big help - so the research can be reassuring as well as guilt inducing. Depends what psychological spin you put on the facts - that's how most people protect their peace of mind in all sorts of situations.

Would still bf if I could but would feel a lot less pressure to do it - pressure I put on myself I mean.

That's a good point - by 24 I'd seen a lot more real boobs and willies than I had at 14!

Sally, I think you are right. If people who feel bad about ff read the research, they will find it doesn't say 'if you formula feed your baby will be stupid, sick and fat'

The effects on individual babies are impossible to quantify (apart from the more unusual cases where the baby has a bad reaction to formula) or predict.

The research is actually quite reassuring in that respect.

That's quite enough about your misspent youth, FairMidden

I do feel bad when i read the research linked to in threads like these, because I wish so much that I had b'fed my dd's.

HOWEVER

Just because I feel bad doesn't mean I don't want the research out there. I also think it is important to read it, because I want to educate myself as much as possible about b'feeding and f'feeding, just in case I have number 3 (unlikely!), and for the sake of my dd's.

Before dd's I had read quite a lot about formula, because all of my friends b'fed, and i boycotted nestle, so read up on that campaign, but because I assumed that I would b'feed it went in on a different level IYSWIM. So despite knowing about the risks of f'feeding, i still ended up doing it, because i really couldn't continue b'feeding the way it was going (or not going as the case may be!)

The comments that make me feel bad, that i do think people should think twice about are

a) formula being like junk food (and there was no way i would ever give my baby that stuff)

and

b) Well I b'fed because f'feeding was not an option/I was so determined/not selfish etc.

Hi hazeyjane, I just wondered if you could expand a little on that last point, I want to understand more about how what people say about bf affects others.

Hello Wastingmyeducation, I had a couple of rl comments like this one from a friend which really hurt, when she said she was surprised I wasn't b'feeding and I told her what had happened, she said, "yes I had a nightmare too, mastitus, lots of pain, and I was recovering from an emergency c-section, but I was just so determined to b'feed I pushed myself through it." It just made me feel so crap that i hadn't had the strength to do what she had done, and at the time I just hung my head in shame, but actually I think it is just wrong to compare these things, because everyones experience/circumstances/physiology is so different, that just because one person can push through the pain, doesn't mean that they have experienced exactly what the other person has. I have seen several comments on Mumsnet where a poster says, 'well i b'fed twins after a c-section, whilst moving house and my husband was the other side of the world, so it is possible' (not a real example - obviously!), and I just want to scream 'but they are NOT YOU'. There have also been a few comments along the lines of 'well I struggled but didn't give up because I'm not selfish, I put my babies needs before mine'.

When I gave up I was destroyed, i wanted to b'feed so much, tried so hard, expressed as long as I could, but couldn't do it. I feel like I did the best I could, but when someone comes out with something like this it just makes me feel awful, and I don't think it helps in discussing how things can improve around b'feeding, because it just makes women like me shutup, and it is important for people who failed to b'feed to be part of the discussion of how to improve things.

Oh and lastly (sorry for rambling!) when people say they just would not give formula, I just wonder what they would do if things did go wrong for them. The assumption seems to be that you only give formula if you choose to give formula, but if things go so badly wrong with b'feeding what else do you do? (I don't think I could have had milk from a milk bank, and I know that none of my friends would have offered their milk)

I hope some of that makes sense!

Thank you hazeyjane, I could have written your post. I have been equally hurt by comments like that, and also fear taking part in these debates because of being made to feel like a useless, weak, selfish mother.

I'm sorry your experience was so hard .

I breast feed because I want to.

that is it.

My own mother INSISTS breast feeding is nor normal natural or right
My MIL if she were here would have supported me all the way I truly wish I could have rung her in the early days and had her tell me it was ok that a baby will feed often from the start but it evens out.
very luckily my MW was still about to hug me and say to me it's ok and give me the support I needed.

I enjoy sitting quietly with my babies and reading my book whilst they feed happily
I still have to get up in the night I never have sterilised a thing ....

I manage to run a business around my children
I mange to run a house round my children.

but that is me that's what I do that's what is right for us.

But sarah, I wanted to as well, desperately desperately wanted to - and it was not feeding too much that made me stop, my DS never fed from me at all .

I'm so pleased you have been able to bf, but it's just not like that for everyone.

I'm sorry your mother was so unsupportive, but you sound like you had a wonderful MW .

Thanks hazeyjane, it's important to hear it from the other side.

From my perspective on this point, I had a hard time for the first few months bf, though I've been lucky not to develop mastitis or thrush etc. When I hear people say it hurt or whatever other problems they had and they had to stop, it feels as though my problems weren't that bad and I shouldn't talk about it.

It isn't the case that bf is either easy or too hard, and I think it's important that women know that it might be a struggle.

It seems as though we just can't talk about the difficulties of bf without someone being upset, which is a terrible shame for everyone.

No excuse for suggesting that those who couldn't bf are selfish of course.

Before I had my LO or came on MN I thought that people choose to either bf or ff and those who found bf easy might still think that I suppose.

wasing, I think it's really important that we do talk about the difficulties though - I had never been warned it could be difficult but that those difficulties were surmountable with the right help. If I had been warned, and supported, I would probably still be bf-ing now.

It's just the way its done that's important - avoiding the "well you just didn't try hard enough" comments that sometimes slip in to posts.

Support in bf can help sort out alot of problems. I had mastitis and thrush however never considered ff as I had only ever seen bf and don't have a clue how to. However my mum was always there and having only seen bf herself knew how to comfort, support and solve all the problems I faced. obviously there are some problem that would have meant I had no choice but to ff lucky I didn't have any of them. But even having only seen bf I still cried my eyes out as I couldn't get the latch right and was told by my mum this was normal and it would come. So I had 24 hour support and couldn't have done it without my mum.

One of my closest friends had a really hard time b'feeding but managed to b'fed her ds for a year, I felt nothing but happiness (and admiration!)for her. When I struggled she offered loads of advice and moral support, and she never once made me feel bad when I gave up (I had my dd a year after her ds). I really don't have a problem with people talking about how much it hurt for them, it is just the way it is done I guess, it's the implication that I gave up because I'm a wuss or selfish or not determined enough that I don't like.

I do think it is important to be told what can go wrong with b'feeding and be prepared for how all consuming it is in the early days, but I don't think anything could have prepared me for just how bizarre, chaotic and difficult things can be when you come home with a newborn for the first time, however you feed them!

It would have been lovely to have the sort of support that you talk about in your post Slushy, which is one of the reasons I want to know as much as I can, so that i can help and support my dd's if they ever have lo's of their own.

I think by the time our children are ready to choose a feeding option most will have the support I had. I think it is sad that others who really want to breastfeed are unable due to lack of support. Which is why I think this forum and the problems discussed here is great because it may give some women the support they need to overcome some problems they face while feeding.

hazeyjane and spongepants - I had very similar experiences to both of you. DD1 NEVER latched on - ever - which at the time I felt was my fault. I tried for four months and she never did it once. The week she was born my Mum was diagnosed with a return of her cancer and with Alzheimers. When DS was born I was dealing with Mum's final stages and my auntie's alcoholism - which meant unpredictable trips away on rescue missions. When DD2 was born FIL had three weeks to live and we were constantly on the motorway. I know women have persevered through all kinds of trauma and admire them very much. But they don't tend to be the ones who are judgmental in my experience.

Most recently a mother at school saw me feeding DD2 (7 months at the time) and said "Why aren't you feeding her?" I said it hadn't worked out - we had never spoken before so I didn't feel like launching into a whole description of bereavements and care of the dying and how that affects your energy and time when bf isn't going smoothly. She said "I guess I'm a more determined sort of person" and I felt like punching her - with DD1 I would have felt like crying but emotions move on... I happen to know she has loads of family support too - from her parents and in laws and thought how easy is it for some people to 'be very determined' when they only have to focus on one thing. I felt as though if I hadn't been determined I would have been giving the children to someone else while I had a nice relaxing nervous breakdown. But why should I tell her all this? DH was furious on my behalf and said I should have asked her why she hadn't lost her baby weight yet, or if her periods had come back. Why do some mothers think bf is up for discussion in such a judgmental way?

I have to say though that it is now clear bf is nothing to do with it. Some people like to make themselves feel good by putting other people down. Her baby is still not walking at 19 months and DD2 started walking at 10 months so she felt she had to comment again saying "Oh dear. Developmentally impressive but must be SUCH a nightmare for you". ??!!

I have heard the same mother going on about screaming out for an epidural and what a godsend they are when I gave birth at home with no pain relief at all but I wouldn't dream of leaning over and saying 'I had no drugs, but I 'm a more determined sort of person'. Most of us accept our birth stories and experiences vary widely and are usually sympathetic or celebratory. Why is feeding treated differently?

It's because we care about our babies SO much and want them to have the best start that bf is an issue. Lots of mums I know never intended to bf and ff right from the start - they love and cuddle and nurture their children too so I don't think you have to have wanted to bf to be a the best mother you can be. But those of us who DID want to have a time when we realise it's not working that is devastating and women who don't tread gently when they approach that subject are extremely insensitive or bitchy IMO.

Hello, I've not posted on MN for ages (went cold turkey when moved house!) but have been following this thread with interest and thinking alot about it, and had to join in.

I have twins and bf for 3 weeks, topping up most feeds with ff. After 3 weeks I gave up bf, my DD wouldn't latch on, I was totally miserable and each feed took forever, plus all the bottles and sterilising, just seemed a nightmare. FF did turn out to be easier in practical terms, but emotionally I still feel sad I didn't 'persevere'.

I escaped much of the hurtful comments, cos when people see twins they just assume you can't bf them (which isn't true, but anyway) and are amazed you would even try. But I still feel all the guilt so many of you are describing, and when I read some of the posts on MN I feel sad that I let my children down in some way, or wasn't a good enough mother.

For me, part of the problem is that although bf IS natural and normal, it is bloody hard work! At least in the beginning. I supported my sister through bf her DD and saw how very difficult it was in the early weeks (altho eventually was much simpler than ff - no bottles, etc) But no-one tells you that! It needs practise, support, advice, coaching, etc and as adults we don't tend to learn new physical skills very often. There definitely needs to be more acknowledgement that bf can be hard work to establish, so you don't feel a failure when you find that out.

That's right penona, I say bf is simple, but not necessarily easy.

hazeyjane, I can completely see why those comments are upsetting, and they are both other people's opinions which you can safely ignore if they're talking rubbish Formula is not rubbish, I have been lucky enough to bf but if not it's the only acceptable substitute. Saying it's junk food is just ignorant and emotive.
As for being more determined - smug faced bitch! There are many reasons why people stop bf, your experience, other circumstances (like SJG describes), the support you got and downright luck have a big part to play.