Reasons for not breastfeeding in public

[DitaVonCheese]

A discussion on another forum I frequent has got me thinking and I'd love to hear some other people's views. If you didn't/don't breastfeed in public (or if you do but are nervous), is it because you're worried about showing too much, or anxious about being told off by a security guard/interfering old bat/unenlightened male, or for some other reason I've missed?

When I first started I was worried about getting told off but now would probably quite happily cause a scene if necessary I think now I'd be more annoyed if someone just kept tutting but didn't actually say anything, so I'd end up being annoyed all day rather than letting rip!

ourlot,
As Sleepless would of learnt on her peer supporter course there are no silly questions.
It is clear that my questions were framed to see if Sleepless was judging the mother, the toddler nursing or both. I wondered how deep her opinions run.

TBM - thanks for the explanation. I'd much rather buy something nice too

"I doubt she cares if she offends a few successful BF Mums on the internet along the way" It is clear that you and her are posting with the intention of upsetting as many online mothers as possible.

Interestingly Sleepless will be upsetting some of the young mums by her posts here, which you claim she wishes to help.

As Mumsnet has a wide age range from teenagers to more mature mothers. Mothers who nurse until 6 weeks, 6 months or 6 years. Mothers from every walk of life post and/or read these threads.

Many posters on Mumsnet help breastfeeding mothers in real life. Search for Tiktoks posts (a highly trained Breastfeeding Counsellor) or read HunkerMunkers blog here to name but a couple.

The difference is these posters aims to help ALL mothers and don't make any value judgement on who they are helping. You could both learn a lot from both ladies.

If sleepless doesn't care about offending breastfeeding mothers on the internet, then she really shouldn't be offering support to anyone - the internet is part of people's lives, and people read, and respond, and react, and I don't see the justification for judging women for breastfeeding on the internet, any more than you would do if they were sitting in front of you!

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few days, and particularly about whether having a peer supporter feeding a toddler would have put me off bfeeding. I was not a young, uneducated mother - I was 33 when I had my first baby and well aware that bfeeding was the best way to feed my baby. However, I was not used to not being able to do something once I set my mind to it. And I made a right balls-up of bfeeding at first, which was only redeemed by a lovely NCT bfeeding counsellor. I don't care whether or not she was feeding a toddler; however, I would have found it offputting if her children had been pulling at her and demanding her attention when she was trying to get my latch right. I realise that's very selfish of me but I was at such a low ebb at that point, it wouldn't have taken a lot to stop me bfeeding. I also realise that most bfeeding counsellors are volunteers, and what are they expected to do with their own children while helping other people? I was lucky that my counsellor was able to leave her own children with her husband while she came to see me.

Bit of a waffly post, and I'm not sure if it really contributes much to the debate, but now I've typed it, I'm going to post it anyway

Good post, Poledra. In NCT, a breastfeeding counsellor would probably not take her own feeding baby/toddler/child with her when she went to see a mum. I am not sure if we have written guidance on this, but it would just not be part of our ethos - we are mother-centred and it would be very hard to centre on the mother with that sort of distraction.

In a group it's different. A peer supporter/breastfeeding counsellor may have her own offspring with her. If she is offering an active engagement with a mother having difficulties getting her baby attached, then again, I wouldn't think it appropriate for her to be distracted by her own kid - you say 'pulling at her and demanding attention' and I agree, that's off putting....not because of the implication that it is weird to bf an older child, but because of the way this means the mother needing help would be helped less effectively. Someone else could take the supporter's child and entertain/hold him or her while the supporter is busy.

If it's more of a social, friendship listening thing in the group, then I would think it would be fine to have the supporter mother feeding, if that's what she was doing at the time.

Other posters have suggested very strongly that the sight of supporters feeding an older baby/toddler is in itself off-putting. I have yet to discover if these posters want to prevent peer supporters from feeding in groups if their child is too old, or if they want to prevent mothers who feed beyond some arbitrary age from training as peer supporters in the first place, in case they bf at the group....

I hadn't appreciated that different support is needed for older children being bf, so thanks for info.

[do I dare pipe up with my own thoughts here...]

I have 2 dc's - dd is 14 and ds is 3. I bf both with differing success. I was 20 when dd was born, I knew nothing about it all but the mw put dd on my breast when she was born and she took to it. Luckily we didn't have any issues and I carried on. I stopped when I started to wean her at 3 months (that was the recommended age then before anyone starts saying it should be 6 months). The reason I stopped? Because I didn't want dd eating her baby rice then feeding from me as I'd get covered in food.

When ds was born I was 32. He wasn't put on my breast at birth and didn't wake for a feed for about 7 hours. I struggled with feeding and getting him latched on. When I asked the mw for help during the night (once I could actually find one on the ward) she came in stinking of fags and tried to assist. All I could think of was get your stinky fingers away from my precious baby! After she left, my nipples stank so I'm not surprised my ds wasn't keen, I wouldn't have been either. We managed it for about 4 weeks, he dropped over 10% of his birth weight and eventually I went on to formula. To this day I felt I failed him.
I did go to a support group but I didn't feel as though I got much support. It's all well and good to say what you're supposed to be doing, but if it isn't working you need a different approach.

I will say here that I am an educated woman who would probably be considered middle class. When I had dd I was still intelligent but would have been considered working class as I was on benefits.
I am currently pg and hoping to bf again. I would hope to carry on morning and evenings after returning to work at around 6 months probably to around a year, although as this is definitely my last I might not then want to give it up! I do wax, although that has lapsed whilst I've been in the nausea stage of this pg

I do find it a strange sight to see children that can walk and talk, then heading over to mum and feeding. I think this is probably lack of exposure to it but I can't be sure. I applaud everyone's right to bf their child for as long as they want so don't take my veiwpoint as condemming in any way.

Had there been people bf a toddler in my support group (or in the next one I'll undoubtedly join) then it would probably result in my asking someone with a younger baby for help. I agree with a poster above, it's not what they do with their children that is the issue, rather that you are so fragile that you need 1:1 attention. Feeding your child is one of the basic needs and rights, and it can be crippling mentally when you feel you are not satisfying that basic need. I had pnd after ds and I do think that part of it came from my feeling that I had failed one of his most basic needs.

just my thoughts - flame away if you so wish

My comment above
'Had there been people bf a toddler in my support group (or in the next one I'll undoubtedly join) then it would probably result in my asking someone with a younger baby for help.'

My reason for asking someone with a younger baby would be based on similarity in age with my baby, hence the perception that any problems being faced would be in the same playing field.

scarlotti - you were really failed by your post-natal carers. That really sounds awful.

I think I do understand ourlot/sleepless's point that if something is already very alien to someone then it might not help to make it seem more alien. I was in a softplay place in Liverpool yesterday and there was a very hippyish woman to the extent I haven't often seen outside of Glastonbury bfing a baby in a sling - don't think it was a toddler but it was quite a big baby (I am rubbish at aging babies though). I have to admit that I don't know what the bfing rates are for Liverpool so I may be generalising wildly without basis, but I'm guessing they are quite low: at any rate, she was the only other person there I could see (not that I went from table to table doing a survey) who was bfing (though not hugely surprising I guess as most children there were older). Anyway, my point is that she looked very different from all the other mums there and was doing something different from most of the mums there, so I can see how, if you have no or few examples of bfing role models, you might assume that those two things were linked. I think that was the point of the Be a Star campaign, wasn't it? - to give young working class mums young working class bfing role models.

However I do not agree with ourlot/sleepless that the way to counteract this is to hide it or pretend that it doesn't happen or put some arbitrary cut-off point on how long people "should" bf. If everyone is given access to the help and support they need and the right info to make decisions, then it should filter out to everyone eventually, shouldn't it? [hopeful smiley] Look at things like green issues and they way they've gone from middle class niche interests to mainstream in the last decade or so.

Sleepless, I have a question: what would you do if one of your young working class mums, who had managed to bf with your help and support, found that she and her baby enjoyed it so much that she wanted to carry on past say 18 months or 2 years? Would you ask her not to tell the other girls?

Good post ditavoncheese.
It would certainly help if more and more people felt happier about bfing in public so that there was more of a balance and role models for every type of person. Not everyone aspires to be 'earth-mothery' or can see past the stereotype.

What a sensible person you are DVC. I'm glad someone understands.
When it comes to cut off points, I have never said there should be one determined by age. I prefer to hide my boobs when BF so I can be in very public places with no qualms. I also do it very privately very publicly so more people see it as normal. I am very aware of how my actions impact on others.
That said, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone on here, as I think ultimately most BF Mums want more to do the same. I wouldn't want the Glasto lady to put a suit on and shave her legs before leaving the house - I don't, but scruffiness aside I don't think I look alien to people who may find BF alien.
If I was sleepless I may ask the Mum you created to become a peer supporter. She'd be the same age and would understand the issues her friends face.

Wow, I was expecting a flaming

I think the difference is that sleepless/ourlot are saying "This is freaky, so let's hide it, and that will encourage more women to bf" whereas everyone else is saying "This is perceived as freaky, so let's work on changing that perception, and that will encourage more women to bf". The latter seems to me to be more of a long-term view.

Problem is, sleepless, that while, sadly, elements of bfing are considered freaky by many people in differing degrees (a lot of people have mentioned in this thread that they don't feel comfortable feeding an older baby in public, so I think it's accepted that a lot of people are uncomfortable with this, for example), one person who shouldn't find it freaky at all is a peer supporter, and that's what people are struggling with/flaming you for!

I think, Dita, you've said what a lot of us are saying....and which I have asked sleepless about three times now, acknowledging that it is worth discussing whether support groups put some women off by having breastfeeding toddlers 'on view' to newer mothers who might be struggling with feeding a much younger baby. You've summmed it up well - the more we see women bf in all sorts of clothes (!), with all levels of hairiness, with offspring of different ages, the sooner we will all get used to it being an option for everyone. No need for hiding.

I am still concerned about the 'quality control' of a peer supporter programme that trains women like sleepless, who get to the end of their training still thinking it is acceptable to judge and to use negative comments about toddler breastfeeding on a public forum, on the grounds that it is not 'necessary' to breastfeed a toddler (expressed as 'wapping them out willy nilly' or 'having a toddler hanging off your breast').

Of course people have these views, and express them in this way - but when people with these views are trained peer supporters and are asked to speak to local mothers, it's got to be worrying. Who on earth monitors a peer support programme that fails so badly??

i don't remember saying that people should not breastfeed toddlers because that is not my opinion.
Of course I would not tell someone to not feed their child how they wanted.
I used emotive vivid language-and have had hysteria reigning down on me forever since.It's difficult to engage with people who pedantically use a non-point to beat someone over the head with and refuse to engage with the real issue.
I am really beyond trying to reason with these ridiculous women any further as frankly-i can't be arsed and they can't be reasonable.
they are being deliberately obtuse/are a bit dim and for that reason,i am out.

I think I need to join one of those other discussion boards so I can have a signature:

"Hairy ankled, yoghurt weaving, obtuse, dim, boob wapping, toddler dangling (from nipple) extended breastfeeder."

Yes, the language was vivid and emotive. And insulting and inappropriate and absolutely unnecessary. It was also used repeatedly. The sentiment that language portrays is inappropriate for a person that is supposed to support breastfeeders.

My DS was a bit tired and grumpy today so had a couple of feeds on my friend's sofa. This thread made me wonder if that's what they were thinking about me. If so, I'd really rather they told me so that I could discuss it with them to help them understand the actual issues.

Sleepless - please tell your 'friend', in those words, what you think of her BF relationship with her toddler. I think you might find that you don't hear much more from her any more.

I know the conversation is very serious... but chairmummiaow - I actually am on another board which could be viewed as quite lentil-weavy - it's a great place too!

Is anyone fighting a cause to breastfeed for as long as they want? The only time that will happen is when the government passes laws banning children being nursed past a certain age and I can 100% guarantee that is not going to happen!

Anyone who has any prejudices against anything breastfeeding is not in the right place to be a peer supporter. You can't add a "but" into your support, you either do or you don't. No one is worried about her offending mothers on the Internet, just that she is showing an attitude that has no place in the role of a peer supporter.

I wouldn't call myself middle class and I can assure you she has no understanding of how I feel! I don't think it is very helpful to anyone to lump a whole class in and say that they all feel the same

Sasamax in Tesco and ASDA they don't check what you've spent so you really do get free stuff if you're not buying formula

"I do find it a strange sight to see children that can walk and talk, then heading over to mum and feeding. "
I completely agree, and I'm one of them (mother, not child ) It is a strange sight, and there's nothing wrong in saying that. Before I discovered MN (and was pg and so reading up about breastfeeding) I honestly don't know if I knew that it was possible to breastfeed after about 6 months. I genuinely can't remember but I can imagine I thought everyone stopped then, and if I had seen someone feeding an older child I may have felt a bit uncomfortable being exposed to something so un-normal (in my world!). Just shows how your opinions and expectations of what's normal can change based on the culture around you.
Sleepless, you have been insulting, and then call us hysterical for responding. You are really patronising and I hope you are very different around the women you are 'supporting' or god help them

Just like Stealth, I use to think nursing a walking/talking toddler was weird/unneeded. Not that I had ever seen anyone nurse an older baby or toddler in real life.

When I fell pregnant I honestly intended to only feed for 6 months and no further. The pre-baby career woman I use to be, would never of believed for one minute that I would end up tandem nursing an 8 month old baby alongside and sometimes together with an 2.8 year old toddler.

It just goes to show, with an open mind and access to the relevent information, opinions can change radically.

I just think it's odd that so many areas of childcare are so polarising and emotive. There are many ways to parent well, not just the way that we chose. But it does seem that a lot of the debates are very black and white - Routine/AP, breast/bottle, Annabel/BLW, La Leche/my inlaws - it's all just people finding the best ways to bring their own children up (and sell books to confused parents, a nasty little cynical voice inside me mutters). As long as the kids are healthy and happy and thriving, there are as many ways of bringing up children as there are parents.

Well, I have just discovered another reason not to bf in public! Sat down today in a nice playground where the older boys were playing, latched ds4 on an fed away. No problems at all until he bit down on my nipple very, very hard!!!!!!
My God, it was hard not to howl out loud!