I heard something that upset me today...

[aurorec]

There have been a few threads recently about breastfeeding and the pressure to stop.

Well today at my French baby and toddler group (I'm French based in London) there were 2 new mums with infants.
They were both FFing, one mentioned that she'd tried nursing for a couple of weeks but it was too tiring and inconvenient with a toddler to look after as well.
The other one just didn't want to nurse. She was fuming about the fact that for the whole of her pregnancy she was subjected to (in her words) 'propaganda' about BFing from her MW.

Propaganda... Oh and she was also outraged that her HV asked her why she'd decided not to nurse. I nearly butted in but they were new and the group could do with new member money so I kept my mouth shut

sometimes the best form of defence is to attack! I found some people very aggressive when I told them I planned to breastfeed. It was as if my choice was a direct criticism of their own choice not to. Maybe they felt guilty, I don't know, however I still remember how upset I was at their attitude.

I guess, but how can you call it propaganda? There is clear medical evidence showing that BFing is better- wouldn't you argue it's normal for MWs to promote it as much as they can and try to encourage mothers to do it- or at least to start?

For the record I live in the same area as them. I saw about 4/5 different midwives during my pregnancy and not one asked me/talked about feeding my baby.

People hear what they want to hear and unfortunately such is the power of the multi minnion pound formul industry that it suits them just fine to have women beleive they are having breastfeeding 'rammed' down their throats when in fact they are being told what thery have every right to know, which is that there are significant health risks involved with giving a baby formula.

i think sometimes the tone of the midwives' advice can make it seem like propaganda, though i agree it isn't of course. people do easily forget or not realise that breastfeeding is really the normal and natural order of things. In plenty of countries, this has been totally disregarded, so that breastfeeding is the unusual thing.

for better or worse, i did feel like i had a choice. I chose breastfeeding. But that said, it did annoy me that the midwives were so pro-BFing, but yet really could not help me when DS proved to have a terrible latch and was losing weight, etc.

I had something of a similar experience to Chandellina. The MWs and HVs seemed obsessed with making sure I BFed but were not at all interested in helping me get there, so I really did feel like the message was 'BREASTFEED! And if you can't manage or are finding it hard YOU ARE A BAD MOTHER!'.

I think they quickly pick up if you are all for breastfeeding and leave you alone, if you're unsure then maybe they try to help you decide.

Very sad that they felt like that.

i found hospital based midwives to be clueless about bf and half-hearted about promoting it. i needed help and they couldn't give it.

in retrospect i think they did know how useless they were, but that just made it worse because i was left in limbo, always hoping a mw with bf knowledge would arrive (i had cs was there for days)

I definitely think there's a problem with breastfeeding promotion in the UK if it comes to be regarded as 'propaganda' in the negative sense.

Parents never seem to attack the sometimes misleading information disseminated by formula companies over the decades but look how potent that marketing is.

Perhaps there needs to be similar messages developed by the breastfeeding lobby or the government as opposed to midwives rubbing pregnant mothers up the wrong way.

Therefore it would seem that a rethink is required so that parents are able to make informed decisions without feeling that defensive anger or the need to attack other people's feeding decisions.

It's the second time today I've heard breastfeeding information being dismissed as 'propaganda'.

Problem in this country is everyone is supposed to be promoting BF but not enough have the knowhow to suport it.

It's such a tetchy subject. I got into an enormous row a couple of times on the Twins and Multiple Births Society's board. If you promote breastfeeding, some people automatically think you're criticising them for not doing it. Where all I was trying to do was offer some encouragement to those who were mastering feeding 2 babies!

Oh I think the whole thing is a big screw up. Women are completely confused.

They're told that bf is really important for their babies, reduces their risk of hospitalisation etc, etc. Sometimes we tell them about the health disadvantages of ff for themselves and their babies - some of which are really serious, like reduced risk of breastcancer, and reduced risk of diabetes for babies.

Then we fall over ourselves to encourage them to see it as a social choice - you know the 'as long as it's your choice, it doesn't matter how you feed your baby'.

I mean - whaaaat? Does it matter or doesn't it? If we say there are a whole spectrum of health and developmental disadvantages for babies who aren't bf why on earth are we also so quick to say 'It's a perfectly valid choice not to bf if it's not what you want to do for any reason' - and people do say this - all the time. I've seen loads of posts to that effect on this board and elsewhere. And challenging the view that perhaps it's not 'ok' to deprive a baby of breastmilk if it's emotionally and physically possible for the mum to breastfeed has become completely impossible everywhere except on internet forums where people can express their views anonymously.......

No wonder women are tearing their hair out over this issue.

And add on the fact that even when women do decide to bf some health care workers and hospitals seem to deliberately sabotage their efforts - on a pretty grand scale round our way..... Well - it's shite.

Whoops - should read 'increased risk of breastcancer and increased risk of diabetes'

Yeah - I heard the 'breast feeding being rammed down one's throat'.

It was from my H/V

According to her, the reason most women don't breastfeed is due to the hospital m/w ramming it down their throat, so they 'rebel'

Strange thing was, she actually believed this!

I remember seeing posts by mums on Bounty who had decided they weren't going to bf as a way of sticking two fingers up at the midwife who they felt had 'bullied them' on the subject. I just assumed they were 14 year olds who were looking for any excuse not to breastfeed so they could hand the baby over to their mum and go back to drinking cider behind the bus shelter.

These are french women - they're had years of anti bf info from adverts & magazines. Look at any french parenting mag & it's all get your figure back & the troubles of bf.

Well, we are taught (BfN) not to advise anybody to breastfeed. Because people do rebel against being told what to do.

We give information, not advise, and we leave the Mother to make her own decision, then support her in that, whatever it may be.

I know it is crap to call it 'propaganda' (were they actually using the word as it is meant though is what I would think immediately) but the reality of the matter is that some people do NOT want to breastfeed, that is their choice.

Some people feel terribly guilty for not managing to breastfeed, often through no fault of their own, but lack of support, information and understanding.

No-one needs to be advised to breastfeed or be made to feel like it is being 'shoved down their throats' (Which even as a BF supporter I will admit I have seen people do).

Think about it, in all honesty when someone offers you 'advise' and tells you you should be doing something how often do you listen? I know I don't, I just dig my heels and refuse to 'do as I'm told'. I'm not the only one.

I meant 'advice' btw I do know the difference

Probably the best response was silence, chandellina. I used to find these sorts of conversations very upsetting as dd and I had to overcome a lot of challenges to bf. At that time, I found it hard to understand why a healthy woman with a healthy term baby might never consider breastfeeding, or might stop soon after the birth of their baby.

How I think about it now is a bit different. Whilst it still bothers me, I recongise that lack of support is a big, big factor for many people and telling them after the fact what they should/shouldn't have done doesn't help. If someone rejects evidence based information about the benefits of breatfeeding as propaganda, then it's an uncomfortable example of someone exercising their freedom to choose. Which includes the freedom to make choices that others might not see as rational.

VC - no, I don't think anyone should be 'told' to breastfeed.

I think what I have an issue with is the approach to the issue of feeding choices in parenting books and socially. There's a constant insistence on the importance of you doing what's 'right' for you, without any serious or detailed discussion of what the factors are that might influence your feelings about what's 'right'. It really is presented as primarily a social choice.

Example from The Rough Guide To Pregnancy:
"If you find you can't bf or bf is not for you, it's nowhere near the end of the world. The way people go on about it you'd think not breastfeeding was teh equivalent of making the baby drink gin...... Look at the adults around you. Look at the kids around you. Can you tell who was bottlefed? Of course you can't.... Instead you can enjoy the relaxed feeling of bottlefeeding your baby... and the freedom it gives you because you can always get somebody else to feed the baby if you'd like to go out" And that follows on from two pages listing all of the advantages of breastfeeding.

In other words - 'breastfeeding is really good for you baby. But don't fret if you don't want to do it because actually it doesn't make any difference!'.

To me this is a contradictory way to approach the issue.

VC - "in all honesty when someone offers you 'advise' and tells you you should be doing something how often do you listen? I know I don't, I just dig my heels and refuse to 'do as I'm told'"

Well - I'm the same, except when it comes to my baby's health. How many women in labour refuse to do what they're told by the midwives when they think it's important for their baby? Most women are quite happy to be bossed around and made to do horrible, uncomfortable things in labour if the midwife tells them it's best for the baby. Fair enough - be cussed when it's only you that's affected, but trying to justify bloody-minded rebelliousness when a baby's long term health and development is at stake? Sorry - I think anyone who decided not to bf simply to shove two fingers up at the midwife is either hopelessly immature and not suited to motherhood, or in more likelyhood doesn't want to bf anyway and is using this as an excuse. Would also assume that anyone who says something like this has had a very, very poor education on infant feeding, because no mum I know is cavalier about their baby's welfare when push comes to shove.

Almeida you are so right. Out of all my friends/relatives/acquaintances I only know of one person who BFed past 8 weeks.

The medical benefits of BFing are not at all emphasised in France (aparently according to my mother MW funding in hospitals is sponsored by formula companies).
It's seen as something a mother might want to 'experience' rather than a benefit for the baby.

My family genuinely think I'm a freak for BFing for so long (DD self-weaned at 14 months- not exactly 'extended' BFing). Another mum in my group has a son who turned 1 in October. She told me lies about the fact that she still nurses him to her family.

Yep - in one discussion I got onto online, there were the views that:

• having a page about it in your medical notes (to say it had been discussed) was too emotive
• that being asked about it all the time (not sure whether this meant MWs or not) was like being "assaulted" by "bfing police"
• that the controversy about feeding stems from the NHS being pro-bf
• that all mums know breast is best, and the NHS's pro-bf stance is part of the problem; they should explain the pros and cons of each and leave the mums to make their own decision
• the "babyfriendly bfing policy" displayed in hospitals upset someone hugely; women's freedom of choice is being undermined

Something is obviously going wrong!

I remember saying "I intend to bf the baby", when asked by MW, and getting a bit of a lecture as I wasn't saying "I WILL bf the baby". I was a bit As it was I bf both for over 6 months, no problems (exept a bit of mastitis OWWW)

Actually the only negative comment I had about bf was from an elderly French aunt. I was having lunch with her and put 7 month old on boob to calm him down so we all remained "civilised". She looked faintly disgusted and asked how long I was intending to carry on doing that.

Well that's a book that is written badly then, complain to the publishers and, to be fair, breastfeeding isn't the right choice for everyone, it may be the best form of feeding your child and ideally every baby would be breastfed but sometimes there are other reasons for people not to breastfeed and they deserve not to be judged on that.

This is why information is key. All women should know the exact risks of formula feeding and be given all the support they need to breastfeed, beyond that it's no-one else's business.

If I made a decision on anything, including labour (just look at the countless VBAC threads to see how many people disagree with their health professional's 'advice') then I expect to be given the whole truth on the risks/stats and to be left to make my own decision.

Breastfeeding isn't always simple for some people, they may have issues surrounding their breasts due to society or experiences, they may find it inconvenient, they may be scared and have heard a lot of bad press etc etc as mothers and women all we should do is make sure they know the risks then butt out.

I wrote about this on this thread

Most women want to bf. For those who don't, it can be upsetting to read that they're not doing the "best" thing for their baby, but you know what? Health promotion ought not to be about not upsetting people. Obviously it shouldn't be about actively trying to upset people, but it really isn't atm, I don't think (certainly not the published literature - I can't speak for how individual health professionals choose to conduct themselves or disseminate that info).