I heard something that upset me today...

[aurorec]

There have been a few threads recently about breastfeeding and the pressure to stop.

Well today at my French baby and toddler group (I'm French based in London) there were 2 new mums with infants.
They were both FFing, one mentioned that she'd tried nursing for a couple of weeks but it was too tiring and inconvenient with a toddler to look after as well.
The other one just didn't want to nurse. She was fuming about the fact that for the whole of her pregnancy she was subjected to (in her words) 'propaganda' about BFing from her MW.

Propaganda... Oh and she was also outraged that her HV asked her why she'd decided not to nurse. I nearly butted in but they were new and the group could do with new member money so I kept my mouth shut

I agree hunker but if you've already told your MW you don't want to bf, you've gone over the pros and cons, you know the risks of ff and have made a decision then she should respect your choice and stfu, right?

Obviously if you come across a different health professional then they may, nay, should ask you themselves so they can be assured you have made an informed decision.

I never relly understood why people juge mother who do not BF. It is not as if FFeeding mums were telling us not to BF. they just make a differnt choice that can be respected too, surely!

Being obese is not good for my health. And yet nobody worries about upsetting me when I read about how I should eat less and exercise more because as a fat person I have more risk of X, Y and Z. There's nothing to say those things will happen - as my perfectly healthy pregnancy testifies - but I am at a greater risk.

So as a person, what I am doing is 'ok'. Anecdotally, I am healthy etc - as healthy as many of my thinner friends. But I know I could be doing something better, and I know I am at risk.

Nobody worries about upsetting parents who have put their children at greater risk of stuff by letting them get fat...

This is basically how I feel about BF advice. I am told to eat less and exercise more as what I am doing now is not the best thing for myself, and I really have no right to get upset about it - facts are facts and the doctors or nurses I see that tell me this are saying the right thing. Why should an expectant / new mother not be told the truth in the same bland manner?

If telling me that made me exercise more because its the best thing to do, how is that different from telling a pregnant woman the same things about breastfeeding. Yet society's attitudes towards those things are so very different. I'm quite confused.

Oh, you're right, VS, yes. If more support was given to women who DID want to do it and less to badgering those who've said they really don't, I'd be a lot happier!

No Gorionine, they don't, but they are putting their babies at risk.
Just as I can't help but judge a pregnant mother I see smoking, some people feel the same about a mother not BFing.
The problem here is not whether ot not we judge (this is often something we cannot do much about) but how we treat these mothers and how we increase the amount of people that do breastfeed in the first place.

But I agree that once the information has been presented and clearly understood, if someone is decided, their decision should be respected.

The trouble is that I think many people don't believe what they are told, rather than accepting the risks in return for the 'benefits' of FF

I agree hunkermunker. IME people do not want to offend ff by saying anything pro-bf/anti-ff in case that person struggled/feels guilty about their decision etc but this does lead to a lot of tiptoeing around the facts and you really can't keep everyone happy!

VS I know what you are saying - because if it was the other way around and some MW kept trying to convince me to ff after I told her I wanted to bf I would probably strangle her However, I do know a few mums who only decided to bf after the birth - sometimes the baby just latched on and that was that! so sometimes the decision isn't always that concrete - people can and do change their mind.

"It is not as if FFeeding mums were telling us not to BF."

??????

I wish.

Of course most don't, but it is far from unknown for comments to be made directly and sometimes rudely and upsettingly to a bf mother, by mothers who are ff or who did in the past (have all the posts about what people's sisters, mothers, MILs and friends said passed you by, Gorionine? )

Another way that ff 'tell' mothers is to post on mumsnet and say 'I can't understand why someone would want to breastfeed at [insert arbitrary age - there's a post on a live thread at present which says 11 months, but it can be any age]' or saying they don't like to see breastfeeding unless it's discreet or in private etc etc etc.

You must have noticed!

SOOO many times I've come across people saying to me, "Well, yes, we do need to tell more people that bf is good, but we mustn't upset those who couldn't do it". And these are people in positions of authority. Fortunately, I also know some fantastic people who are inspirational and motivating and I think Good Things Are Afoot [somewhat cryptic]

Personally, I'd like to treat women like adults and give them some facts, along with some decent ways to access good support.

Maybe they were on the defensive because the can't/won't breastfeed.

True bubbleymummy, but if those mothers felt respected and listened to during the pregnancy then surely they are more likely to ask for help at birth?

Someone I went through my last pregnancy with didn't want to breastfeed her child originally.
I said nothing other than the facts. I told her she could always change her mind, she could just latch baby on and see if she wanted to, but that the support was there whatever decision she made and I let her be, it was her decision to come to.
I can almost guarantee that if I had badgered her and kept telling her the risks of formula and how she should breastfeed that her LO would not have been breastfed. (BTW, She, like myself is still BFing her child at 9months)

And I think the keyword in my last post is support, something every mother needs, BF or FF.

georgiemum - of course there is a reason why ff mothers may undermine a bf mother, and of course it may go into the emotional level of defensiveness and sadness.

But whatever the reason, it certainly happens!

VS is totally right. Give the facts, answer the weird and wonderful qusetions, and just let them decide.

I had never really known a BF mother in RL before. That made a difference to me.

Scorpio, I cited your experience in RL the other day, you know!

tiktok, If someone tells me( as i was told myself, "There are places to do that" pointing at the toilet when I Bfed (discretely BTW) To me it just meat that that person has issues or was an idiot in no way it meant that I was a bad mother! ( I actually have a long list of stupid comment having BFed for the last 8 years non stop!)

Now when a mother is told (10'000x) that she "really should BF" and "how can you not BF when there is so much benefit from it" it implies that she (the mother) is a useless incompetent! which is very narrow minded as people do not even bother to know the reasons why this mum choose to FF rather than BF.

I have BF my 4 Dcs and am still Bfeeding the little one who is just over 2 but still find it patronising on behalf of FF mums when they are flammed for making different choices.

Seriously, my views could not have swung around anymore! I'm still BF Mimi(9 months), and am hoping one day to tandem nurse as well.

Not everyone feels that way though Gorionine.

For some mothers people saying things like 'Why don't you use a bottle then you can sleep and DH can feed' or 'why bother' or 'Do you have to do that here' etc is enough to make them stop breastfeeding.

Actually, Scorpio, can you email me, please?

hunkermunker at gmail dot com

tiktok, If someone tells me( as i was told myself, "There are places to do that" pointing at the toilet when I Bfed (discretely BTW) To me it just meat that that person has issues or was an idiot in no way it meant that I was a bad mother! ( I actually have a long list of stupid comment having BFed for the last 8 years non stop!)

Now when a mother is told (10'000x) that she "really should BF" and "how can you not BF when there is so much benefit from it" it implies that she (the mother) is a useless incompetent! which is very narrow minded as people do not even bother to know the reasons why this mum choose to FF rather than BF.

I have BF my 4 Dcs and am still Bfeeding the little one who is just over 2 but still find it patronising on behalf of FF mums when they are flammed for making different choices.

Gorionine - What about the bf mums who are constantly asked by friends/family/complete strangers - are you still doing that?/how long are you going to keep that up for?/when are you going to give that baby a bottle?/isn't it time you gave that baby some 'proper' milk? - In RL I think bf mums get that an awful lot more than ff mums and it completely undermines them - because people don't even bother to know the reasons why this mum chose to bf rather than ff.

Gorionine, I am not in favour at all of people being told what to do, or being banged over the head (verbally) with criticism for whatever they want/plan/end up doing with infant feeding....or being put under pressure in any way.

But it is crazy to claim that ff mothers do not tell mothers to stop bf /not to start bf/stop bf often with strong implications even explicit ones, that they are 'bad mothers' for doing so. They're told they're 'only doing it for their (mother's) benefit', that they are making their baby 'too clingy', that their baby will develop a 'fixation' (sexual), that their milk cannot be any good because it's watery, or not good enough in some other way, that their baby needs 'real milk', that they are depriving their baby of something only formula can provide, that they are being 'selfish' because no one else can feed the baby.....etc etc etc etc. All these and the million other daftnesses are ways of criticising the bf woman's mothering, and saying that they are various shades of 'bad mother' for breastfeeding.

"Well that's a book that is written badly then, complain to the publishers"

Except you'd be complaining for the rest of your life as almost all the big selling baby books contain similar comments.

EG: CLB (she who must not be named)- 'Breastfeeding is very good for bonding but don't worry if you don't want to do it. I wasn't bf and nobody could be closer to their mother than I am! My friend was bf for 2 years and she hates her mum!' (I kid you not - this isn't verbatim but it's not far from it!)

"it may be the best form of feeding your child and ideally every baby would be breastfed but sometimes there are other reasons for people not to breastfeed and they deserve not to be judged on that"

Well, nobody deserves to be judged - everyone makes their choices based on what they know and understand about the subject, and what they can do socially, physically, emotionally. I think that mums who don't see their baby's welfare as hugely important are incredibly rare.

But I wish with all my heart that the writers of baby books and magazines would refrain from commenting on the issue of choice - just give women the facts as you say VC, and then also BUTT OUT. Even saying something as seemingly innocuous as 'The most important thing is that you feel comfortable with your choice' is a value judgment, and in my opinion should be left out.

Gorionine, I think posting on behalf of mothers who've made different choices from those you've made can be somewhat patronising and unhelpful.

It really helps to recognise that not everybody feels the same way as you about the choices they've made - for many mothers, bf is a new thing to them, it's something they've done because they want to based on conversation with their midwife, maybe, but they have little or no support at home - in fact, often they have anti support, as VS has said. And that pressure can be more than enough to scupper their bf - the "look how unsettled he is, if you gave him a bottle..." "you can't be making enough milk for him, look how big/small he is" etc - because many, many women having babies now have mothers and MILs who ffed and don't know how to support bfing.

Some good info on how grandparents and other family members/friends CAN support bfing here