I heard something that upset me today...

[aurorec]

There have been a few threads recently about breastfeeding and the pressure to stop.

Well today at my French baby and toddler group (I'm French based in London) there were 2 new mums with infants.
They were both FFing, one mentioned that she'd tried nursing for a couple of weeks but it was too tiring and inconvenient with a toddler to look after as well.
The other one just didn't want to nurse. She was fuming about the fact that for the whole of her pregnancy she was subjected to (in her words) 'propaganda' about BFing from her MW.

Propaganda... Oh and she was also outraged that her HV asked her why she'd decided not to nurse. I nearly butted in but they were new and the group could do with new member money so I kept my mouth shut

Sorry, just posted after missing 3 pages.

Gorionine, you imply my mind is somehow closed? NOTHING could be further from the truth.

My question wasn't flaming you (please tell me you're not that sensitive!) - it was simply a question.

My one bug bear, for me, is that the NHS is great at printing leaflets, posters etc which state how great BF is for baby and mum. However, once the baby is out then the NHS falls flat on it's face. A lot of MWs and HVs are utterly clueless about BF and the mechanics of it all. The NHS manages to set a lot of mums up for a massive fall, because not once do they mention how bloody hard it can be and oh, you will have no practical help whatsoever. Most women who do want to BF but then don't feel tremendous guilt. I don't know if I would describe it as "propoganda" but it is backed up by no real substance whatsoever.

TCF, you are right. There are some excellent people working within the NHS, but lots of pretty useless ones when it comes to actually doing something practical to support bf.

Gorionine, no one has flamed you and it does not help anything or anyone to dramatise what can be a useful and insightful debate by pretending you have.

I have not generalised about mothers feelings or whether there is any 'point' to breastfeeding...you have stated there is 'absolutely no point' in breastfeeding if the mother does not like it - and your reason for saying this? Because you would have stopped if you had not liked it. Blimey. World according to Gorionine, eh?

People have their own reasons for bf, and their own reasons for not doing so. They are complex and individual. They all have a right to non-patronising information, and support afterwards, with no judgement.

The evidence is clear that for the vast majority of mothers, this means breastfeeding, at least at first - even if this choice is made with varying degrees of enthusiasm. Given the powerful health effects of this choice, it's up to society and health professionals not to put barriers in the way of it, but to work to make it work well....and to help mothers feel comfortable and happy doing it. Mothers who don;t feel happy or comfortable, for whatever reason, still need support, as they may wish to put their feelings to one side for the moment. No, I don't think everyone should do this, if they don't want to - it's their business.

SlightlyMad - it is good practice to wait until after the birth before asking a mother if she plans to bf. She can have the info in pregnancy, and no boxes are ticked until the baby is actually there.

I completely agree thecrackfox. You only have to look at the threads on MN to see how useless some HP advice is! It bothers me that we're having to rely so much on volunatry organisations to pick up the slack...so many mums I know with los of their own are giving their time for free to help other mums while too many HPS (obviously not all) go around spouting inaccurate or useless information and getting paid for it!

lostinnappies, in what ways are you made to feel a 'second rate mother' for formula feeding? That's not a nice feeling, I can understand...presumably you know you are not a second rate mother, so what is it that you see or hear, that can actually make you feel something different?

This is a genuine question, not a criticism!

Tiktok you are right it was not a ncie feeling at all. The guilt about stopping was terrible and I used to fear telling HVs etc.

ever since I have had my children and experienced my feelings towrds Bfing I have always been honest with new mums and mums to be who ask me about BFing and most importantly try not to be biased.

I tell them that everyone should have a choice and that is the main thing - we should be able to make up our minds based on factual and unbiased information.

I felt that the information I received about the options for feeding my baby were very biased towards Bfing.

here are a couple examples:

At my NCT classes we had a whole session dedicated to BFing - one lady wanted to ff from the start and was told to read the formula pasket for advice on how to do this.
(At the time I thought this was a bit )

With ds1 after weeks of trying to convince myself that I was enjoying BFing I called my MW in tears telling her that it was making me unhappy and please could she tell me how to use bottles. She was very dismissive and told me that I was best to go to mothercare and get advice from there. There was no medical professional available to me who could advise me on ff.

These 2 points in themselves even though isolated incidents clearly demonstrate the bias towards BF. I can obviously understand why this exists but in the interests of balance and to help mothers like myself information should be equally available for ff.

The culture of breast is best made me feel inadequate at first and very defensive of my choice - thank goodness I have not let it affect my self esteem and how I regard myself as a mother in the long term.

I have heard of numerous new mums who make themselves very upset perservering with bf against their wishes for fear of being 'told off'

This has to stop.

What other help would you expect for formula feeding though?
It is as simple as reading the tin.

One of the reasons breastfeeding charities/NHS can't be seen to promote formula feeding in anyway is the amount of money spent on advertising these products in the first place. Breastfeeding is fighting a losing battle against corporation and profit. That has to stop first.

I would have expected something more than just "read the packet". I had lots of questions eg.
do i need to give water as well? (it was a very hot summer)

advice on nipple size and flow.

advice of the different types of formula (easy digest/hungry baby etc)

I had no idea what I was doing when I switched over to ffeeding my first and the lack of advice made an already stressful time even more difficult. I had none of the equipment in the hosue because all throughout my pregnancy i was convinced that Bfing would suit me as noone told me otherwise.

I thought companies wre not allowed to advertise formula.

I have seen adverts for follow on milk only -I might be wrong.

There should not be radio silence on formula feeding though as this insinuates that it is taboo.

I am happy that I was able to give my children some breast milk and proud of the fact that I gave it a go.

I would like to be respected though for making an educated and informed choice and not be wary of passive agressive comments from others.

I can't help but think that when people advocate certain aspects of looking after children (feeding is one of these) then it can feel as though we are being told how to parent.

Thanks for answering, lostinnappies.

The NCT breastfeeding class is just that - a breastfeeding class. We (I am an NCT bfc) do not train in formula feeding, and while we support people whatever their preference/choice, we cannot use the breastfeeding class to cover the practicalities of formula feeding - people need to know that at the time of booking the course, I think, so they are not disappointed.

However, midwives and HVs are trained in formula feeding, and should not dismiss any request for help. I disagree with VS - it is far more complex than 'read the pack' (although it's a start, for basic 'how to do it'). Parents need to know far more - how to ensure the baby is fed mainly by one person only, for instance, how to ascertain the baby's appetite, what is normal in nappies and vomitting, and so on.

To get the full picture of formula, mothers should also have the downsides, and to know the full risks of this choice, but that's almost never what people mean when they say 'tell us more about formula feeding'! In fact, talking about risks is probably the 'bias' you are complaining about, lostinnappies

There is a shocking lack of information about different types of formula, too - but that's because of commercial imperatives. No manufacturer wants you to know more than vague platitudes like 'supports your baby's growth' or some such

Anyone told by a midwife 'go to mothercare' when they ask about ff should complain.

Our culture is not supportive of breastfeeding at all, though, lostinnappies - you may see little corners of it that are, but on the whole, it is not.

lostinnappies, there are no adverts directly advertising infant formula, but of course the follow on ads are de facto ads for infant formula (same branding, for instance).

Marketing of infant formula is massive - the baby clubs, the carelines, the special offers, the freebie rubbish given to HCPs, the leaflets, the posters, the websites....

I agree - 'radio silence' on ff makes no sense. Parents should know more about it, more about the different brands, how to ff safely, and so on. This doesn;t happen and we get marketing instead.

totally agree we should have all pros and cons clearly explained prior to making a choice.

I wonder if you really mean that, lostinnappies.

You really want all the cons of ff....all of them? Upfront and open?

Hiya

I have just joined this thread and read some of the comments about Bf anf FF.

It is something that has perplexed me since the birth of both of my kids. One of whom is now nearly four the other nearly one.

Both are FF, both are on the 98th centile for height,weight and head circumference.

But I completely sympathise with those mothers who sometimes feel inadequate for 'admitting' to FF. I did not BF either of my kids, I tried, I did not manage it. Had there been better support I might be arguing the point from the BF camp!

Many times because of the size of both of my children it has been implied that it is because they were FF. Largely ignoring the fact I am 6 ft tall my husband 6 ft 3 inches tall.

I have always 'avoided' discussing methods of milk feeding because of this. I am sure that when the kids reach school age and take exams, do sport etc it will be interesting to see how kids are measured.

A child is more than just what you feed them in the first six months. As s social worker I believe that nurture is just as important as whether or not I BF or FF them.

My point is that it is such a shame that women end up 'justify' or 'qualify' their 'choices' when they have children. I thought there was supposed to be a sisterhood out there. We are all doing a tough job in tough times.

There seems to be problems with the BF and FF debate from both sides!

I've said before if Formula companies stopped advertising and gave purely the facts they would say something along the lines of...

"Hi, we're and we make formula milk for babies. It is a subsitute, albeit a poor second, to breastmilk for feeding infants from birth until approximately the age of one year old.

Our milk contains *Water, but not enough so your baby will need extra boiled water.
*Protein, but in too high a concentration so it has to be diluted which lowers the calorie content and then has to be supplemented with lactose.
*Fat, which is less easily absorbed then breastmilk fat.
*Carbohydrate, but in insufficient quantity so lactose has to be added.
*Vitamins and minerals, but not enough so many formulas are enriched with extra vitamins and extra iron.

and sometimes other things we have created in our labs which we have labelled as prebiotics and used to claim this milk is closest to breastmilk, when in fact it is closest to cows milk.

Our milk is packaged and marketed to be bought by the most customers so is pretty darn expensive and although people may tell you otherwise, it will not harm your baby to change it's milk, so you can swap and choose as you liek to see which one suits your childs make-up best.

Ideally your child should be fed breastmilk, as it is what is provided by nature for them, but as not everyone wants or is able to breastfeed we have made this milk to make an awful lot of money in this gap in the market, but if you do choose to use our formula instead of breastmilk, you will be putting your child at risk of more gastro problems, allergies, higher risk of heart diease later in life, doubling the risk of chest infections between birth and seven, doubling the risk of ear infections, making it five times more likely to suffer from urinary tract infections, and also will make the mother more at risk of osteoporosis, breast cancer and ovarian cancer."

And that;s just some of the physical 'cons'.

Pros however, erm.. Someone else can do it? (of course you could use EBM for that) I really can't think of any others.

And somehow there is no judgement being made about whether women BF or FF.......

Do you feel superior?

Me?
My daughter was formula fed....

I think that people ( by that I mean women) should be more supportive of each other!

I think if I were to have read that recent stuff when I had just started to FF my Daughter I would have felt even worse than I did at the time.

Perhaps we should be more critical of the lack of REAL support for women a the time of birth to help establish better BF and support after the birth. The formula companies thrive off of this.

The generalisations that are made both about BF and FF are staggering! If one or the other was a sole determinant of longevity, intelligence, weight gain/loss, blimey we could make a fortune. But of course whether you BF or BB is part of the story surely. Are we not all missing the point?

You know, just reading that through, and examining my responses, I realized that I was nodding sagely until it got to the list of horrendous possible consequences of using formula instead of breastmilk. Then I was filling up and going over the internal 'Iamacrapmother' monologue again.

I felt like I failed my third child by BFing them, and I failed my fourth by FFing them. It's like mother like me see the 'List of bad things' and that's all we see.

The negative reaction arises from a mixture of guilt and defensiveness.

Ticktok Feeding baby was not even talked about at all. I don't recall having any leaflets or information or anything...the only info I remember getting was a leaflet on the downs screening.

There was a checklist in my notes which said MW should talk about feeding (along with all sorts of other stuff) between 34 and 40wks and she did none of it.

KayHarker I think you put the point better than me about how we all feel when we read stuff about BF or BB. Or anything to do with child rearing generally.

Kay I too am close to tears with guilt after VS' post

I should not be made to feel like this

I love my children and want the best for my family