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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

I heard something that upset me today...

185 replies

aurorec · 29/01/2009 15:34

There have been a few threads recently about breastfeeding and the pressure to stop.

Well today at my French baby and toddler group (I'm French based in London) there were 2 new mums with infants.
They were both FFing, one mentioned that she'd tried nursing for a couple of weeks but it was too tiring and inconvenient with a toddler to look after as well.
The other one just didn't want to nurse. She was fuming about the fact that for the whole of her pregnancy she was subjected to (in her words) 'propaganda' about BFing from her MW.

Propaganda... Oh and she was also outraged that her HV asked her why she'd decided not to nurse. I nearly butted in but they were new and the group could do with new member money so I kept my mouth shut

OP posts:
Lulumama · 31/01/2009 08:48

the internet is a fab resource,ys, SP009 especially MN and blogs like hunkers. that are accurate!

but if you went for advice on perhaps slightly less breast knowledgeable web sites, you would get v v poor advice

there are , as we have seen , sites that have parents advocate weaning at 8/10/12 weeks for 'hungry' babies, you are not necessarily going to get correct breastfeeding advice from a site like that?

it is v v difficult

if posters like tiktok, hunker, VS etc did not take the time to post on MN, we would also have a dearth of advice.

it is only due to the goodwill of people giving their expertise that MN is the fab breastfeeding resource it is

msdemented · 31/01/2009 09:27

"I think one thing that isn't taken into consideration when people say "you can't tell who was bf and who was ff" is how someone was bf. That sounds daft right?"

Amazing that this argument is used to diminish the importance of bf but if you used it in relation to any other health issue people would think you were bonkers. You can't tell anything really by looking at people, other than if they're obviously overweight or very underweight. That's why people carried on doing bloody appallingly dangerous things for years on end - like using lead nipple shields (I kid you not) and smoking in pregnancy, until medical research fingered them as a cause of ill health in babies. Same is true of pre-lacteal feeding - still common in many parts of the world. Mothers express their colostrum and throw it away and give the baby a thin gruel instead until their milk comes in. . If these things were obviously harmful mothers wouldn't have carried on doing them!

hoppybird · 31/01/2009 11:07

Maybe, if you're a dentist, you can sometimes tell if someone was breast or bottlefed.

FioFio · 31/01/2009 11:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

StealthPo09IsHere · 31/01/2009 11:10

I've been wondering why people have started adding loads of links to their posts and I've just figured it out! Don't think that's going to be popular!

hoppybird · 31/01/2009 11:26

I received very little information regarding breastfeeding prior to my first child being born. The only thing I got was 'Emma's Diary', which was a very basic guide to pregnancy, labour and caring for a newborn. I felt I had to muddle through when I started feeding, and looking back now, I know that I was given incorrect information and very little support from HPs, and quite frankly I'm amazed I managed to bf my ds at all. It was only after I finished bf him at 18+ months, that I found MN and all the information that would have helped me when I started out, and found out about various studies.

You don't know these things unless someone tells you or you find out for yourself, as the art of breastfeeding is not something which is necessarily learned in the family these days (or indeed, at the mother's breast )

Lulumama · 31/01/2009 12:18

how do you mean, stealth?

StealthPo09IsHere · 31/01/2009 12:23

I've just looked at it and I think she did mean it to be a link. I am talking rubbish
Thought it was MN but it may be another forum I was on tried linking keywords to advertisers, so if you typed "car" it would automatically become a link to the Ford website (for example, can't really remember). Not surprisingly, it was hated! Actually, was that MN?

tiktok · 31/01/2009 12:24

msdemented, while all you say is true, up to a point, I think that social and cultural pressures play a part in all this - there are many human, health-related behaviours that are, indeed, obviously harmful, but people continue to do them.

I am sure you can think of examples.

One response to this is to deny that the behaviour is harmful ('the doctor says I should stop smoking otherwise I might have to have the other leg amputated, but what do they know?' or 'the fact I weigh 25 stone is nothing to do with pies and chips - I am just made that way' or 'there is no difference between formula and breastfeeding').

Smoking, over-eating and formula use are all socially and culturally affected behaviours. Merely convincing people, or making it obvious, that these behaviours have downsides, is not enough.

NB: I am not saying that smoking, over-eating and formula use are the same.

Lulumama · 31/01/2009 12:33

ok, stealth

hoppybird · 31/01/2009 12:33

You talkin' 'bout me, Stealth? It was a deliberate link, with reference to the previous post, saying you couldn't visually tell if someone was bottlefed. I thought it was an interesting study, there if anyone wanted to read it.

StealthPo09IsHere · 31/01/2009 12:37

Sorry! In my defence I'm pg and not really sleeping!

Lulumama · 31/01/2009 13:00

oh yes. you are allowed to be pregnant and crazyily insomniac and hormonal !

StealthPo09IsHere · 31/01/2009 13:04

It's not me who's insomniac, it's DS - he must be having sympathy symptoms

Lulumama · 31/01/2009 13:08

oh dear.

this to shall pass

duvet day for you all today !

StealthPo09IsHere · 31/01/2009 13:09
Smile
Maria2007 · 31/01/2009 14:25

This is such an interesting topic... and very complex. It's hard to know what's the right thing to say or to believe.

My boy is now 6 months old. For various reasons, bf has been a struggle for us from the start- and often far from enjoyable. And yet we've persevered- him & me- and here we are still bf, and hopefully for a long time more. I have to add, in order to be honest, that I also give him some formula at night (since he was 4 & a half months). There are many reasons for this, irrelevant to this debate, so I won't go into them. Just mentioning this to make clear that I'm no breastfeeding purist- because of my beliefs & because of circumstances, I've ended up doing mixed feeding of a sort, and I'm relatively ok with my choice.

However, between my breastfeeding & my formula feeding, there's no question that the breastfeeding is what is closest to my heart. It's what I feel I have needed support for at various times (and I've not always got the support I needed). It's what I have felt undermined & attacked about- mainly by family members who seem to be threatened & even angry the more time passes & I'm still breastfeeding. Questions such as 'how is the bf going' or 'are you still bf' or 'how much longer do you intend to bf for' or 'surely your milk is not thick enough at this point' or 'you do know bf after 2-3 months is for the mother's benefit solely' are unfortunately ones that I've had to deal with. I always get uncomfortable, defensive, embarrased & basically made to feel as if I need to lie when it comes to bf.

On the other hand, in my RL, I always make a point (not sure why) of almost undermining my choice & my struggle to bf, when I'm talking to ff mothers. I do this because I sincerely feel their choice & their circumstances need to be respected. However, if I'm fair (and as the months pass & I'm still bf), I have to agree that I'm not getting support by ff mothers, in fact, I feel more & more that I'm seeing like some sort of loony for carring on. And my boy is just 6 months, really a very small baby, but it's as if I'm bf a boy of 6 years of something, when I hear those arguments.

Sorry that this is such a rambling post. I guess there's a lot of emotionality that goes with this issue, and I appreciate that this emotionality & pressure (either from others or internal pressure) goes both ways- both ff & bf mothers feel it. To all my ff friends though who feel they're criticized & not understood about their choice, I have to say (and I wish I was able to say this in real life too) that I, as a bf mother, also feel very undermined, criticized & not understood. Very much so. And the thing is, lets be honest, breastfeeding is much much harder work than formula feeding is. So undermining bf has wider effects, in my opinion, than undermining formula feeding. What I'm saying is, if someone undermines ff the worst that can happen is that the mother in question may feel bad (which is not at all a good thing of course). But if a breastfeeding mother is undermined, the worst that can happen is that she will quit bf, due to tiredness, embarrasment, loneliness, lack of support, etc.

Anyway. Sorry for rambling on.

StealthPo09IsHere · 31/01/2009 15:15

good post maria

aurorec · 31/01/2009 15:24

Just for the record detachment parenting doesn't exist in France anymore.

(This is going back to an old post)

But all the anti-BF prejudices are alive and well...

OP posts:
Maria2007 · 31/01/2009 15:29

What is detachment parenting?

ilovemydogandMrObama · 31/01/2009 16:31

Attachment parenting, I think is based on instinct rather than reading books and following a strict program.

Includes things such as keeping a baby close, responding to cries, feeding not by schedule, but by when baby is hungry...

msdemented · 31/01/2009 16:33

Agree v. much with what you say Tiktok.

But I do think this sort of thinking ought to be challenged. I have a lot of it in my extended family but am not brave enough to say anything. Both my parents in law and my SIL and her husband are obese. Between the four of them they have had a stroke, developed type 2 diabetes, had a heart attack and have really bad hypertension. And yet they still deny that their over eating is in any way responsible for their problems. I get 'well, so and so had a stroke and she's as thin as a rake' and 'so and so lived to 93 and she smoked 30 a day'. It makes me want to scream. My FIL is 78, is 5 ft 6 and weighs 18 stone. He's had a stroke and spends his entire day in an armchair. SIL and MIL feed him as though he's a navvy - huge steaming plates of food, enough to feed three people...... Sometimes I wonder whether they're trying to kill him. But I can see that they are completely helpless about their eating problems, and that cavalier attitude to health is psychological protection......

Maria2007 - I do think you should make a (late) new years resolution to not apologise so much. Your post is very interesting! And thoughtful.

It is so true that it is much easier to sabotage bf than ff.

almeida · 31/01/2009 20:16

Hunker - thanks for the info. The french mothers I know & also what I read firmly believe in breasts sagging with bf (it's not the actual cause though)

tiktok · 31/01/2009 20:17

Interesting examples of denial, msdemented - I think we should add 'emotional and psychological' to 'social and cultural' barriers to breastfeeding (and other health-related behaviours).

To breastfeed happily and effectively means overcoming emotional and psychological fears that the baby is 'taking over' or will 'be spoilt' if fed responsively and if allowed to be unpredictable....many women, even happy breastfeeders, equate their baby's health and well-being with regular feeds and long sleeps. Babies are given bottles of formula in order to 'combat' the natural tendency to feed often and unpredictably and it's an emotional thing to want your baby to be healthy - with a cultural pressure to see this as being settled and regular.

tiktok · 31/01/2009 20:18

Maria - good post!

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