I heard something that upset me today...

[aurorec]

There have been a few threads recently about breastfeeding and the pressure to stop.

Well today at my French baby and toddler group (I'm French based in London) there were 2 new mums with infants.
They were both FFing, one mentioned that she'd tried nursing for a couple of weeks but it was too tiring and inconvenient with a toddler to look after as well.
The other one just didn't want to nurse. She was fuming about the fact that for the whole of her pregnancy she was subjected to (in her words) 'propaganda' about BFing from her MW.

Propaganda... Oh and she was also outraged that her HV asked her why she'd decided not to nurse. I nearly butted in but they were new and the group could do with new member money so I kept my mouth shut

For my defence, I must admit that NEVER has anyone asked me when I was going to start bottle feeding neither friends nor family.

They only stupid comments I ever got were for Bfeedind in public places and that did not stop me doing it!

msdemented, agree entirely. There are many women unhappy and uncomfortable with the choice to breastfeed, but they still do it, because of other reasons. They need support, as well.

We do a lot of things we feel unhappy about and uncomfortable about, for the sake of our kids. We mop up seven shades of shit and sick; we tackle a difficult teacher at school; we force ourselves to go to the cliquey, unfriendly toddler group because our toddler loves going; we're nice to a horrid MIL because she's our baby's grandmother and she adores him....

Women who ff may not feel remotely 'happy' or 'comfortable' about doing it, but have ended up doing so because of other circumstances.

Being happy and comfortable is not always 'the most important thing', and to say it is, is, indeed, a value judgement.

And boo to it

Hear here!

""There are many women unhappy and uncomfortable with the choice to breastfeed, but they still do it, because of other reasons. They need support, as well.""

Maybe the support they need is to be allowed not to Bf without beeing branded with a red iron.

Yes, we probably would be complaining for the rest of our lives, but what else are we to do?

If no-one complains then nothing gets done.

The problem with books like SWMNBN are that they are written on opinion not fact so it's hard to dispute such claims. Also, what she has said may be true! I haven't spoken to my mother in 7 years and I was breastfed but, in reality, that has nothing to do with whether or not I was breastfed!

As someone who BF three and FF one, I can honestly say that any pressure I felt was when I decided to FF my fourth, and got a lot of lectures about BF (and no real help).

But, that was largely because I knew that I really couldn't BF, for a number of reasons, and I felt tremendously guilty about that. It's very much a perception thing, I think.

Sorry, Gorionine, your last post quoted me, but I don't understand your point about being branded with a red iron....hope you can explain

Sorry ( I do not blame you, I hardly understand myself sometimes)tiktok, your post implies that it does absolutely not matter at all how unconfortable or unhappy a mother can be , only the benefit for the child matters. When I was talking about branded with a read iron it was to illustrate the fact that it does indeed (to me) mean that if you decide to not BF you are branded "bad mothers" for not having put up with discomfort and unhapinessfor the sake of yur child.

I think there is absolutely no point in BF if it is not fulfilling you as well as your baby. I was fortunate enough to find pleasure, pride in doing it but had it made me feel unhappy I would have stopped!

Thanks for explaining, Gorionine....no I was not saying that it doesn't matter how uncomfortable the mother is (daft idea, and nothing like what I said!).

I said the mother's comfort and happiness may not be the most important thing and gave examples of where mothers put their own happiness and comfort to one side.

I was thinking of struggling mothers who were not at all happy about bf, but did it anyway - they may not want to hear that what they are doing is 'wrong' because they are unhappy and uncomfortable, and that somehow, they ought to stop.

Breastfeeding should indeed be fulfilling, enjoyable and rewarding to mother and baby. I disagree with you, though, in your idea that there is 'no point' (indeed, 'absolutely no point') in breastfeeding if the mother does not find it so. You generalise from your own feelings (that you would have stopped) to make a general rule for everyone....always a dodgy thing to do.

I will say it again - women who are not happy bf, but continue to do it anyway, need support. You, I think, would not even offer them support because you think there is 'absolutely no point' in bf in those circumstances. I certainly hope you keep those thoughts to yourself in real life

Gorionine, most women in this country ff. Most women WANT to bf. By the end of a baby's first week of life, only one in three is having solely breastmilk - the others have been supplemented.

I don't get the "red iron" thing. I don't think it's helpful, as I said, for you to be defending a group of women of which you are not part - why are you doing it?

Yet again, you may feel that way, but others won't.

For some mothers feeding their baby this way is only to lower the health risks both mother and baby would be at risk of.

But there is a valid point here that reams of pamphlets spelling out the superiority of BF can be tremendously counter-productive if there isn't proper practical support going alongside it.

I know one of the things I'm pondering doing in the latter half of the year is becoming a BF volunteer, because I hated every minute of BF my third, and that was certainly a factor in not BF my fourth.

There was no support like that for me, and certainly none readily accessible to me out in the community. I could show you lots of shiny leaflets with happy BF babies and mothers that I was handed, but all it did in the end was confirm to me that I was a bad mother. Which I do still believe is true, actually.

These are french women at a french playgroup. Issues are breast sagging, getting figure back and general detachment parenting - this is what will stop them bf.

"Sorry ( I do not blame you, I hardly understand myself sometimes)tiktok, your post implies that it does absolutely not matter at all how unconfortable or unhappy a mother can be , only the benefit for the child matters."

I don't read that into TikTok's post at all . In fact I think it's clear that she's acknowledging women's suffering and making a case that they need support. In other words saying it really matters that mums who are bf struggle and sometimes feel unhappy with it.

"I think there is absolutely no point in BF if it is not fulfilling you as well as your baby"

Really? What about if doing it (even though you find it difficult at the time) increases your self-esteem and confidence as a mother in the long term? Or means that you stand less risk of developing breast cancer? Or results in your baby being ill less often and less seriously? Or makes your baby a better, less fussy eater after weaning begins? There is a value in delayed gratification sometimes you know! The things that we struggle with at the time are often the things that in the long term we feel very pleased we persevered with.

tiktok, I am ing because I thing both you and me are generalising on our own feelings, experiences, that is what people do.

I do not say that every one who is not comfortable with it but still wants to do it should stop just that it should remain a personal choice, based on personal feelings, not yours our mine.

I am not "defending" a group I am not part of I am just seeng both sides of the argument. but,FWIW I think only caring about people from the group one belongs to is not helpfull either!

Hunkermunker, where do you get the mumbers from? (genuine question!)

KayHarker, you're absolutely right - all the leaflets in the world are no substitute for proper bf support.

That reminds me - when I had DS1, nobody helped me bf him. I complained to the hospital and during the meeting with the Head of Midwifery, she said, "But we have lots of posters up about bf".

Actual physical and emotional support absolutely key to improving bf rates (beyond initiation - which is pretty simple to improve by comparison "Go on, try one feed" ).

Whoa, Gorionine - what on earth makes you think I or anyone else questioning your stance only cares about one group of people?

I get my stats from DoH Infant Feeding Surveys, other stuff I read in the course of my work, NHS figures, etc, etc.

KAy, so true.
So little support.
In my town we have one BF supporter. ONE. In 3 weeks when I have finished my course there will be two.
And a midwife who runs our babycafe.
Luckily we live near a city (where the local hospital is) that has a fabulous Breastfeeding Clinic, but it's still a huge trek to get to with an awful lot of people to get through.

Almeida, it's pregnancy that causes breast droop - and bfing often gets figures back in shape quicker (a la oft-heard celeb mantra). Detachment parenting it's not so hot for though!

I know that this discussion has moved on - but I had written a post last night when Tech pulled the plug.

I have to say that I suffered the complete OPPOSITE to that described in the OP.

The first time a MW asked how I was going to feed my baby/was I bf? I was IN LABOUR (or I may even have been holding may baby - it was a bit of a blur). I think that is also disgusting.

ok ... I have never really admitted this before on here because I feel that there can be witch hunts on this site for mums who ff.

I f fed both my babies.

I did not like breastfeeding ... (there I said it)

I could never put my finger on it but something about it did not sit right with me.

both times I tried to breastfeed but I felt the same way each time.

I was an awful lot happier when I chose to ff.

Part of my unhappiness was caused by the judgemental attitudes of health professionals and other mums.

It makes me angry that womem who chose to ff are made to feel like second rate mothers.

I have a choice if you don't like it back off please.

I whole heartedly support choice and do not judge others.

"I remember seeing posts by mums on Bounty who had decided they weren't going to bf as a way of sticking two fingers up at the midwife who they felt had 'bullied them' on the subject. I just assumed they were 14 year olds who were looking for any excuse not to breastfeed so they could hand the baby over to their mum and go back to drinking cider behind the bus shelter."

comments like the above are not helpful.

I hated all the stuff on bfing when I was pregnant. I found it annoying.
That said, I (secretly) had no intention whatsoever of bfing, and didn't want to do it. I was willing to try but hoped it wouldn't work out.

Don't attack me, though - I've managed it totally exclusively up to now and DS is nearly 8 months. And I want to carry on...for ever! (Well, I'm sailing towards the year mark and I have no intention of stopping before then.

I guess what I'm saying is that all the information in the world before you have your first baby won't make the difference, and it can be annoying if you're like me (or like I was) - and I am fully aware that I was incredibly stupid before.

""I don't think it's helpful, as I said, for you to be defending a group of women of which you are not part - why are you doing it?""

that,Hunkermunke, made me think I had to justifie myself. I do not know what is worth really, being flammed because I am happy BF, or because I think having a choice between BF and Ff should stay a choice!

I am not trying to convince anybody either way, unlike some, just keeping an opened mind on it all.

worse not worth, must be some sort of freudian slip!

I imagine Hunker means that you are talking about something you have no idea about.
It doesn't help people who formula feed, or people who are unhappy/uncomfortable with breastfeeding to answer for them iyswim.
I think the saddest thing on this thread is that two people who decided they were going to formula feed their babies have worried about being attacked for their choice and have even felt the need to defend themselves by telling us how they are breastfeeding "Don't attack me, though - I've managed it totally exclusively up to now and DS is nearly 8 months. And I want to carry on...for ever!"
Surely that tells us something about the way people that are pro-breastfeeding should conduct themselves (and that goes for people who are anti as well, IMO)
As someone who is a BF supporter I would love to see rates equal to Scandavia or parts of Africa but there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.
Midwives/other Health Professionals being trained on how to talk to mothers about breastfeeding would be a start, then of course there is formula advertising...