"Breast feeding is disgusting"

[TheBookofRuth]

So said my best friend over a group lunch today. I held my tongue - yes, it was an insensitive thing to say in front of me as I'm still bfing my two year old DD and planning on bfing my second DC who's due in July, but it was hardly news to me that she thinks that and we are good enough friends to survive a difference of opinion.

However, when she followed that up with "there's actually no evidence that it's any better for babies than formula", I had to speak up. Eventually someone changed the subject to Palestine on the grounds that it was less controversial.

So why did you feel the need to tell MN if you are actually not that bothered.

As long as you didn't call her for help bfing, anyway, Ruth!

Sorry, don't mean to be flippant. She obviously means a lot to you. I still think it wasn't an acceptable thing for her to say, although from your last post it sounds like there's a bit of a backstory there that we don't know.

Another good post from tiktok. I had a very difficult time getting bf'ing established with DS1 - 6+ weeks of sobbing (mine and sometimes his) agony. The main thing that kept me going was the knowledge that my best friend had exactly the same experience and had got through it. Most of the HVs and MWs were useless, and my mother (who ff from 2 weeks because she was told she didn't have enough milk) was clearly having to bite her tongue not to tell me to stop (to her credit, she didn't.)

I made it through and have BF for 4.5 years (across 3 DC) in total now, so it worked out for me. Better advice and support at the beginning could have made it a much easier start though. Also, with hindsight, I wish I'd fed the first two DC longer than I did, (it might have given them extra protection against the autoimmune disease they both have) but I didn't know anything about bf'ing while pregnant, and thought that was a crazy out-there thing to do, which now that I'm on MN, I don't think any more.

I don't think other people need to make the same choices as me, but i think I, and they, ought to have the opportunity to make those choices - which we can't, if we're misinformed from the start.

The thought of me breast feeding disgusts me. I cried when my milk came in as I felt revolting. Hey I have issues. I am expecting a flaming for having this opinion.

But that's not an opinion, it's a feeling that you have.

Nobody's going to flame you because of how you feel.

There's a massive difference between what you feel and what this woman said.

Announcing publicly to a table of friends that "breastfeeding is disgusting" is a totally cunty thing to do. Appalling.

It is calculated to offend and hurt people who are breastfeeding, who have breastfed, who were breastfed themselves.

There's just no need for it.

It'd take more than a disagreement about bfing

I wouldn't call this a disagreement about breastfeeding. I'll call it a disagreement about being a nice person who doesn't act like an objectionable wanker in public.

I was bothered by her claiming there was no evidence that breast milk is any better than formula, because that's simply not true.

But yes, why on earth would I start a discussion about something on a message board. I shall endeavour to sit on my hands next time something happens I feel like sharing.

There is no proof it is though.
Just various statistics suggesting it is.

No, if I rang her for help bfing she'd do her best to give it, though she'd be the first to admit she wouldn't have a clue. As I said, she was very sympathetic about my struggles to establish bfing. And I've bf in front of her many times and she's never commented or asked me not to (tbf she knows exactly what reaction that would get her!)

Should she ever have a baby and put it straight on to formula, I'd feel privately that it was a shame she wouldn't even try bfing, but I'd keep that to myself and defend her to anyone who criticised her. Does that mean that in future group discussions I'd never express my opinion that breast is best for fear of upsetting her? No.

No, MPB, there is plenty of evidence. You can chose not to believe it. You can chose to believe the moon is made of green cheese if you like. Doesn't make it so.

Evidence is not outright proof.
Nothing can be proven 100%.
One of the first things learnt on my science degree.

MPB, what 'statistics' would enable you to accept that human breastmilk is more physiologically-appropriate for human infants than other milks (and therefore 'better')?

I'm afraid we are stuck with 'various statistics' when it comes to evidence about anything in life. Getting 'statistics' together, in the form of results from research, is how science is done.

I'm not sure what else is available to us - anything else like blind faith, or a mystical message from Mother Nature, or a dogmatic personal opinion, is no good.

So we're stuck with boring old science and its 'various statistics', plus a dash of common sense that indicates that as every other mammal has a different milk, perfectly evolved to be adapted to the needs of its young, then we are likely to be the same.

Poor old us.

You have a science degree?

Ha ha! 'Evidence is not downright proof. Nothing can be proven 100%'

Yeah. I don't believe that antibiotics cure bacterial diseases. I mean, there's only evidence to suggest they do, right?

Statistics are not outright proof is what I actually meant.
And yes I have a science degree.

I personally believe it is BF better but only marginally so.

And nothing can can be 100% proven. I am not wrong on that one. Google it!

Of course some things can be proven.
Some things are only theories.
But 1 thing i do know is milk companies are companies like any other and their objective is to make a profit and get you to buy their product not give your baby the best start in life.
If 90% mothers bf for the year until giving cows milk they would lose a lot of money.

MPB - a quick Google will bring up hundreds of studies all of which say that breastmilk is better for the baby and the mother. Find me ONE which says this about FF.

It might suit you and your choices better if FF was the same as BF but it simply isn't. It is magic stuff, and you've let yourself be conned by the FF industry...

It is impossible to prove anything - it is impossible to prove the moon is not made of green cheese. Bringing back a piece of moon rock which is not green cheese is merely overwhelming evidence that it is not....it does not prove that the original green cheese it was made of has not transformed into rock, or that the lab which tests it has not made a mistake in its assessment blah blah blah.

You offered the statement 'there is no proof' [that bf is 'better'] as some sort of counter argument that bf is better than formula, and that all we have is a bunch of 'various statistics suggesting it is'. This is not a scientific argument. If we have to wait until we have 100 per cent proof, we will wait forever.

We have the next best thing, though. A bunch of 'various statistics' that continue to show, relentlessly, after controlling for variables, that the best health outcomes for babies come with breastfeeding....and the more breastfeeding, the more marked the difference (so a 'dose' response).

So - we have something that is biologically plausible (that species-specific milk adapted to the needs of the species, and promotes physiological norms ie better health) PLUS 'in vivo' evidence that this is indeed what occurs to real live human infants. I'd say that amounts to pretty solid evidence.

However, you 'personally believe' (in a very unscientific way :) ) that the difference is 'marginal'. I am not sure what population of babies, geographically or historically, you are referring to, but if we decide to be really parochial and only think about UK babies in the 21st century, we can observe that most babies grow well and are healthy, whether breastfed or formula fed, and whether breastfed for a long or a short time (which is absolutely not the case at every point in history or everywhere in the world even now). What we can't do is say any particular baby is 'marginally' affected, or seriously affected....even in the UK, even in the 21st century.

Part of the problem is that you get articles like this one which if someone is struggling with breastfeeding for whatever reason might make them wonder whether the benefits of breast milk are enough to be worth continuing to struggle on.

juule, but for a mother with a little intelligence and the internet it's not difficult to find out that the author of that the author of this report is funded by GSK, developers of modern formula milk.

No surprise there then.

Does that mean that in future group discussions I'd never express my opinion that breast is best for fear of upsetting her? No.

That's not really the equivalent of saying that breastfeeding is "disgusting".

The equivalent of what she did would be to start ranting about how disgusting women were who fed their babies the milk of a different species instead of using the milk nature intended for them.

What she said was deeply offensive to a LOT of people. If she had been out in any social group I am part of, nobody would be seeking our her company again.

It's like saying that gay sex is disgusting. Or fat people are disgusting.

Just rude, horrible bullshit intended only to hurt people's feelings and get yourself attention.

juule, I don't think that sort of article is very powerful (and atthestroke, I don't think people delve that deep, either).

What is more powerful are the contacts women have in their real lives and the social context they find themselves in.

Join, I've tried three times to come up with a response to that and I can't. Suffice to say I feel differently.

Yes people would be confused by that article.
It seems irrelevant as possibly the bf rate is higher in that country so the people not bf could be because of testosterone. I dont think 99% not ebf at 6m is because of this.
I think the people affected by that would know they have high testosterone (pcos etc) but not the effect on bf.
(If the study is correct it means that here people with the issue should be identified to see what can be done for them (metformin?) or at least told it can be an issue so that when the baby struggles to gain weight etc

Atthestrokeoftwelve This from the NHS says " The study was funded by the central Norway regional health authority and published in the peer-reviewed medical journal Acta Obstetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica."

However, it does also say it is a theory that needs further research. So a less sensational report.

If you look at the actual paper rather than the magazine article it plainly states THe Glaxo was a funding source.

www.eje-online.org/content/155/2/365.full.pdf

Funding
The study was supported by the US National Institutes
of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD
Contract No. 1-HD-4-2803) and grants from Glaxo
Wellcome AS, Norway and Sintef Unimed Research
Foundation, Trondheim, Norway.

In any case it proves nothing.
The evidence to show that breastmilk is a healthier food is overwhelming.

atthestrokeoftwelve: who else then? We already have an army of trained volunteers working hard to support mothers.

I'm really pleased you have witnessed such good support in the area you live but you only have to actually listen to mothers who have had bad/non existent support to know it varies greatly around the country.

In my area the mid-wife appeared for 10 mins at the beginning or end of the 'support group.' 6-8 mums were usually desperate to talk to her and inevitably most weeks she left without speaking to everyone who needed help. The Dr referred you to the midwife or HV (also overworked and not able to really give a mum quality time or advice)

Whether you like it or not it is not easy for all new mums to talk about bf with a stranger, be watched and prodded by a stranger and hence after a few bad experiences with a health professional it is understandable that mums loose heart.

It shouldn't matter how many mums ff, it's their choice and it shouldn't be used as a scapegoat for poor support for those bf. It also shouldn't be a reason for the lack of conversation on bf in society.

Surely we all know it's about funding and hence the people to moan to, and at, are the government not mums. The govt could choose to really tackle the issue in a proactive, focused manner but instead choose to set targets, withhold information from mums and throw about a financial bribe to certain mums hoping it will make them bf.....