"Breast feeding is disgusting"

[TheBookofRuth]

So said my best friend over a group lunch today. I held my tongue - yes, it was an insensitive thing to say in front of me as I'm still bfing my two year old DD and planning on bfing my second DC who's due in July, but it was hardly news to me that she thinks that and we are good enough friends to survive a difference of opinion.

However, when she followed that up with "there's actually no evidence that it's any better for babies than formula", I had to speak up. Eventually someone changed the subject to Palestine on the grounds that it was less controversial.

Not creating milk/enough milk is not the only reason that women can't breastfeed. The are other difficulties (mastitis, abscess, thrush, cracks, etc) that make breastfeeding hideously painful and therefore not something a woman can continue with. No need to be a martyr.
There is a crazy amount of misinformation out there, particularly ignorance about cluster feeding, hind/fore milk or otherwise, night feeding etc that contributes to women feeling like it's not working which absolutely needs to be addressed via proper support. But let's not pretend that lack of breast tissue (hypoplasia) is the only physiological reason that women can't breastfeed. It might be the only reason that women don't produce milk, but that's a different issue.

Who is pretending that hypoplasia is the only reason women fail to breastfeed? What a strange thing to say.

Some women are unable to breast feed due to medication they are on. I breastfed all three of my children but when my middle one was 18 months I had to take medication that would also affect my child if I continued. It's a terrible feeling. People shouldn't judge others On the ability to feed there child.

The overwhelmingly majority of women who believe that they 'can't' haven't been properly educated.

Quote from radiator.

It is a strange thing to say. Because 'most' women who can't breastfeed need support and acceptance, not bloody education from self righteous know it alls.

I breastfed DS2 until he was 2. I am not feeding DD because I have breast cancer and I'm undergoing chemo, which would poison my baby. She is thriving on formula. If anyone dares judge me, I will take my wig off and let them have it.
No one knows each individual's reasons for not breastfeeding, it's often not as simple as "not enough milk", thank you very much.

In some cultures, the rates of breastfeeding are very high, which suggests in many cases (not all) it is not that women are unable to breastfeed but that the support and help that most women need to successfully breastfeed is woeful in this country.

I don't think anybody is judging the women in question.

If someone makes an informed choice to use formula that's different and is entirely her choice and should be supported. But it seems a lot of women want to bf and aren't helped to, which is crap.

I can't see how anyone could judge you for that weebarra. The vast majority of babies in this country are bottle-fed anyhow (hence all the breastfeeding is disgusting nonsense).

I hope your treatment is going ok. It must be so hard going through all that with a young baby.

Here's Unicef's breakdown of breastfeeding rates per country. As you can see in some countries 97% of babies are being breastfed at 12 months.

www.childinfo.org/breastfeeding_iycf.php

So it seems it can't be a physical problem in the majority of cases.

I think education is an unfortunate word, and I certainly don't think women who don't breastfeed are less educated or anything. I think almost all women need good support to breastfeed though. Our culture is not set up for it.

I think these discussions are really hard because it is such an emotive issue. I think almost all mothers do the absolute best for their babies, and it is definitely not a case of people "trying hard enough" or being "educated enough". You are not expected to birth a baby with no help and I don't think most women could breastfeed a baby with no help either, and yet that is what our postnatal provision amounts to in many cases.

Juno I don't think radiator meant it in a "you're so thick way" just that a lot of hcp peddle myths about bf and give out the wrong information therefore making a woman believe she cannot breastfeed.
I bf my first dc for 3 months and had a rotten time. I didn't understand how it worked, I was constantly engorged (and only realised recently that that's not right) and gave up at 3 months as I was exhausted.
I'm currently bf 8 week dd and as I am better prepared and know more about breast feeding I can hopefully feed her for longer.
The problem with bf/ff debates is everyone feels attacked because feedi g your baby and keeping them alive is an emotive subject. As far as I'm concerned no one should judge anyone for how they feed their baby. Ff is perfectly valid.

To talk about women who 'can't bf' is rather non-specific.

Being able to bf is in my opinion about more than physical ability.

If talk is about those who 'could not physically bf' then I understand we are talking about insufficient/non production of milk or other physical causes.

I don't think a woman is any less a mother or should be belittled for giving up on bf whatever their reasons because those reasons are valid to them.

I personally hated bf and it led to thoughts of abandoning baby and hubbie such was my dread of feeding time and all the pain, tears and misery.

Am I any less a mother? Do I love my child any less? Like hell! I have a happy healthy child whom I love enormously.

Would I say I 'couldn't' bf? Actually yes I probably would if someone were thoughtless enough to pose that question. It was stop bf or have a mental breakdown or leave both baby and hubbie. So, not a physical reason but mental.

I think it quite interesting that the OP doesn't condemn her friend and dump her as some suggest. She is clearly more tolerant and open-minded than her friend and some of those posting on this thread.

EirikurNoromaour
"Not creating milk/enough milk is not the only reason that women can't breastfeed. The are other difficulties (mastitis, abscess, thrush, cracks, etc) that make breastfeeding hideously painful and therefore not something a woman can continue with. No need to be a martyr."

No need to be a martyr, but none of these problems necessitate the cessation of breastfeeding.
Uncomfortable and painful, but usually avoidable and treatable.

SquigletPie

I don't think anyone should have to tolerate their friend calling them disgusting. I would never ever call my friends disgusting. If they do parenting things I disagree with I keep my mouth shut!!

Actually one of my friends did say things like "oh god you're not going to be one of those women are you" when I was still breastfeeding at um, around 3 months. And we're still mates! Oh well! Friends can get away with a lot…

Yes and if you have mastitis, stopping feeding suddenly is pretty much the worst thing you can do.

Also with medication, yes there are some you can'tbf with but there are many women advised to stop bf unnecessarily because if medication, when a lactation consultant or the pharmacist available by phone at the BfN can properly advise if this is necessary. There is def a need for education for HCPs many of who know little about bf.

I've never heard the 3-5% you claim is ' widely acquired' Juno and I have done some bf training and read a reasonable amount about it.

I am not bothered how anyone chooses to feed their babies. I have supported mothers to stop bf, mixed feed or whatever. But I do think it's a great shame that women without adequate support who feel they couldn't bf go on to say this to others, getting the message out that bf has to be difficult or that it's common not to be able to do it. It is also a shame that some mothers feel guilty about not bf and don't want to be honest about their choices.

I suppose I agree there must be few women who really can't bf. (It would be silly biologically) though medications etc.
People just don't expect it to be so hard. (A bit like labour)
It is incompatible with our lifestyles.
Most people I know chose to stop around 2 months or less or start combined feeding to get help in the night etc.
1 gave up before even the first night.
But it seems a lot get frightened by the loss or lack of weight gain. More support is needed before it gets to that stage.
Also if they know things like pcos can cause problems bf then they should tell you so you can know what to expect.
Also they should say it can be more difficult if you had a caesarian and again support people.
If people choose not to fine but if they want to and can't ..

"Uncomfortable and painful,"
I can understand women not wanting to continue with breastfeeding if they are finding it painful and they know that their baby isn't going to starve if they stop. Especially if you don't have any idea how long it's going to continue being painful for and you are tired and at a time when you are recovering from giving birth. If you are not convinced that the benefits of breastmilk are more than marginal then it's understandable that the commitment to continue with bf-ing might not be there (imo).

I think my issue is that if we have a casual acceptance that lots of women can't breastfeed then it may prevent some mothers from seeking help and just simply accept that it doesn't work for them.

I have seen it within my own family- some relatives breastfeeding for a couple of weeks and giving up at the first difficulty, assuming they are one of the large numbers of women who can't.

I have met over 1000 women with breastfeeding problems, and the vast majority with the exception of two have been able to continue.

It takes women who are motivated to breastfeed however to find good support.

"It is incompatible with our lifestyles."
I think there is truth in this comment, too. While not totally incompatible as obviously lots of women make it work, feeding from a bottle does make life easier for some. Other people can take over the feeds. If formula fed then there is also no necessity to express and no fighting/upsetting a baby who doesn't accept the occasional bottle feed.

If breastfeeding there is usually no "necessity" to express either.
A bfed baby doesn't need the ocassional bottle feed.

My breastfed baby needed the occasional bottle feed as I couldn't take her into the science lab where I was sitting a practical part of an exam.
I could have left her with nothing for the hours I was away but I didn't feel that was fair on her or the person looking after her.

juule- yes but that was an unusual situation.

There may be no necessity for extra bottle or expressed food but most women will want to or need to do something without the baby for a few hours so it's worth getting them used to bottles or you end up with them refusing it (and cups too)

I think my issue is that if we have a casual acceptance that lots of women can't breastfeed then it may prevent some mothers from seeking help and just simply accept that it doesn't work for them.

But, this is one of my issues with pushing breastfeeding. There is no shame in accepting that it doesn't work for you. For whatever reason; physical, mental or choice. Pushing the idea that women need to be 'better educated' to seek help isn't always right.

Whilst some women maybe would like help, some are just fine, know what they are doing with FF and don't need to feel pressurised into getting help to BF when, for whatever reason, they aren't able to. That is why it is patronising.

But, this is one of my issues with pushing breastfeeding

Your ISSUES with breastfeeding are clearly manifold.

But stop pretending they are about anything other than yourself.

If you gave a shit about other women you wouldn't come onto a thread like this and cause a fight by deliberately misunderstanding people.

The only one making you look badly educated (and extremely ignorant) here is you.

It's not patronising at all. Most breastfeeding problems are solved easily with solid support. Many women don't reaslise that and there is a huge lack of good support, so women will struggle for weeks without resolution- I completely understand why that would be a reason to give up.
Most breastfeding problems can be solved in a short time.