"Breast feeding is disgusting"

[TheBookofRuth]

So said my best friend over a group lunch today. I held my tongue - yes, it was an insensitive thing to say in front of me as I'm still bfing my two year old DD and planning on bfing my second DC who's due in July, but it was hardly news to me that she thinks that and we are good enough friends to survive a difference of opinion.

However, when she followed that up with "there's actually no evidence that it's any better for babies than formula", I had to speak up. Eventually someone changed the subject to Palestine on the grounds that it was less controversial.

Depends on how motivated to breastfeed a woman is juno. MPB technically could have continued to breastfeed- she wasn't one of the rare women who "couldn't" breastfeed.

I couldn't breastfeed DC1 because of the woeful advice I got given by HCPs and I readily admit that I was underprepared and uneducated on all aspects of breastfeeding (despite me being an educated woman holding down a professional job, so it's nothing to do with how "educated" you are), despite really wanting to breastfeed. I thought it just came naturally. I was also encouraged to give a bottle, which I did, got mastisis, engorgement, had a baby that got used to the bottle and didnt want to breastfeed after that.

With DC2, I read everything I could lay my hands on about breastfeeding, went to breastfeeding workshops and talked to the experts. I breastfed DC2 very easily, not a single issue, never got engorged as DC2 was constantly feeding so didn't even notice my milk come in, only when her poo changed. She is still bfing and she's almost 3.5yrs. I strongly believe that if I hadn't armed myself with all the info that I did, I probably would have failed to breastfeed her too, given the lack of support and incorrect information from the HVs and midwifes. I think its' quite amazing when a mother does manage to breastfeed succesfully in the face of such inadequate support!

Don't fucking pity me. My baby is 5 in March and perfect in every way.

playfellows

Well, that's one hell of a misquote!

I have said in the past, that it is offensive to suggest that mothers are the only/best caregivers for a child. I base this on the fact that not all children have mothers, not to mention the fact that fathers are just as capable of caregiving as mothers. This is fact, not opinion.

And yes, some women don't have breasts. So saying it's a myth that lots of women only think they can't breastfeed is really offensive.

No it's the other way round: the current advice is for women whose viral load is low enough (i.e. the ones on antiretroviral drugs) is that exclusive breastfeeding is recommended. (it's not quite as straightforward as that, but anyway, the guidance has changed, you can look at the WHO)

There were studies done which showed mixed feeding is dangerous in the context of HIV, less so exclusive breastfeeding.

How do you define rare? The rates of exclusive breastfeeding at 6 months in this country are around 1%. In other countries they are 99%. Of course 1% of women is still a very large number of women. 100 women is still a lot of women. But I think you are splitting hairs here.

atthestroke

No, she 'techincally' couldn't have carried on. She explained her reasons.

Do you not see that continuing to say that women who couldn't BF could have, if only they'd tried harder, is awful? It's upsetting, damaging, judgemental and rude.

Well, there are lots of other factors why women stop BFing earlier in this country (and others) compared to other countries - many women have to work and can't fit BFing around it. Formula here is excellent, and we have the ways and means to safely and properly feed our babies without BFing. Not all countries have this.

But that is entirely beside the point.

Surely people don't really expect a woman who is tired, upset and emotionally vulnerable to have to search the web, phone the NHS, their Dr, the midwife or 100 other contacts before they just give up and ff?

Yes, education is poor in most areas of the UK and more honesty during pregnancy (when hopefully woman are stronger) is needed. Perhaps woman should be encourage to go to a bf support group regularly before baby arrives so they can see what support is available so when they hit trouble they already have a support network?

Looking back I am disgusted at the pressure mid-wives were putting me and other mothers under to bf and continue to do so. We were new mothers who were so vulnerable, nervous, terrified even. It was nothing short of bullying and not for baby's benefit and certainly not for the mothers but for figures! If they were able to actually offer some decent advice and support they might have had a leg to stand on but in my area that was far from the case.

It's sad that some women feel that bullying and pressuring women to bf is the way to increase bf rates.

There are women who can't bf and women who don't want to, leave them alone. Focus the limited resources on those who do want to and work on getting them the support they want and need.

I have said in the past, that it is offensive to suggest that mothers are the only/best caregivers for a child.

I base this on the fact that not all children have mothers

So you think it is offensive to suggest that mothers are the best caregivers because some children don't have mothers.

You don't care whether or not it is TRUE that they are the best caregivers for babies.

Your issue is that saying it might offend some people.

So it's just like the breastfeeding thing.

You think it's offensive to say that most women could breastfeed if they wanted to/didn't get shit advice/had more support.

You are not interested in whether or not that is TRUE. Just in whether it might offend some people. (i.e. YOU, it would seem.)

Surely people don't really expect a woman who is tired, upset and emotionally vulnerable to have to search the web, phone the NHS, their Dr, the midwife or 100 other contacts before they just give up and ff?

No, indeed, it shouldn't have to get to that point, and the onus shouldn't be on the woman at such an exhausting and difficult time to search around for appropriate advice. That's the point, that breastfeeding culture and support in this country is awful.

I agree with you that bullying women is completely horrible and pointless. I'd like to see the NHS offering more practical support, I don't see the point in telling women breast is best if you're not going to give them the support to feed like that.

There is no doubt formula feeding is easier. Until that changes people will give up breastfeeding if they can afford to.
I must have saved 100s bf
The countries with higher rates are poorer.
A minor factor I'm sure but as people are having kids later a lot seem to be choosing to have them close together so stop bf and get pregnant.

Can't say I ever felt bullied or pressurised into breastfeeding, on the contrary, they couldn't suggest formula top ups quick enough! Maybe it depends on the area.

Juno -
"No, she 'techincally' couldn't have carried on. She explained her reasons.

Do you not see that continuing to say that women who couldn't BF could have, if only they'd tried harder, is awful? It's upsetting, damaging, judgemental and rude."

You are wrong. She chose to give up. She was offered a solution- SNS- which is very effective.
She chose not to take that help.

Atthestroke.

I could not breast feed. End of.
Combine physical and psychological reasons.

I'd had an EmCS which is known to affect BF ability and also had an undiagnosed Underactive thyroid.

I was only motivated to look after myself and my beautiful baby boy in the best possible way for us.

But many women do go the extra mile to seek good breastfeeding support- it depends on a women'a motivation to breastfeed.

For many it is absolutely crucial- I would have made 500 phone calls to get the help I needed.

Health care professionals are AWFUL at suggesting formula as a solution to everything. Even things which are made WORSE with formula!

Here is how it generally goes

Antenatal care "Breast is best, you should breastfeed, are you going to breastfeed, why not, breast is best"
Postnatal care "Things aren't right!! Have formula!! You are starving your baby if you don't!"

As if this isn't going to result in a) hardly anyone breastfeeding and b) loads of women feeling like complete shit about it.

Most health care professionals are not trained in breastfeeding, for the record.

Surely people don't really expect a woman who is tired, upset and emotionally vulnerable to have to search the web, phone the NHS, their Dr, the midwife or 100 other contacts before they just give up and ff?

I don't expect anyone to do that.

But having done it myself because of how much I really wanted to breastfeed and how much I didn't want to feed my baby formula, I think women in that situation might actually WANT to do all of these things rather than give up.

And if they do, they need support.

They don't need people telling them that it doesn't matter if they don't breastfeed. They don't need people telling them to ignore their instincts about how to feed their baby and putting pressure on them to do what is easiest for everyone else.

When I was in that situation and people told me it didn't matter I felt fucking terrible. It mattered to ME and I wanted to make it work.

I found it incredibly reassuring to find out that breastfeeding didn't come naturally to every woman and that many people struggled at first.

The idea that women are not allowed to talk to one another in this way because it is "offensive" to other women who want to make other choices is pretty fucking outrageous.

Mn would be a happier place if we all just hid these divisive, pointless threads.

Peace and love

I can't see the point in people getting upset or offended only they know why they stopped/ had to stop.
But facts are facts. If 97% can then they can. Only you know where you fall in that.
If you are given a choice to try something to enable you to keep on then you are not unable to breastfeed until you have tried it.

"MPB- SNS can be very effective, it's a pity you didn't want to try it."

I don't think it was a pity at all. MPB had gone as far as she could given "I was so down, sore and vulnerable. And physically not producing milk - less than ounce a day. Maybe I could've continued but it would have broken me. " Or do you think she should have tried it, completely broken down and then possibly not been able to care for her baby or as she did do recognise her limits and knowing her baby wasn't going to starve do exactly what she did do.

And BTW I'm not upset or offended.
I'm just saying what happened to me. Just in case some poor vulnerable mother is reading this thread and feeling a whole lot worse for it.

Thank you Juule.

I think it's very very unhelpful to put the onus on new mothers to persevere and fight through our country's lack of breastfeeding support and our culture which makes it so hard to breastfeed from day one.

It is not new mothers' responsibility to change these things. They are vulnerable and they do their best.

weebairn - who else then? We alreardy have an army of trained volunteers working hard to support mothers.

It's the formula culture that makes breastfeeding so difficult.
Countries with very high breastfeeding rates don't need much breastfeeding support.