"Breast feeding is disgusting"

[TheBookofRuth]

So said my best friend over a group lunch today. I held my tongue - yes, it was an insensitive thing to say in front of me as I'm still bfing my two year old DD and planning on bfing my second DC who's due in July, but it was hardly news to me that she thinks that and we are good enough friends to survive a difference of opinion.

However, when she followed that up with "there's actually no evidence that it's any better for babies than formula", I had to speak up. Eventually someone changed the subject to Palestine on the grounds that it was less controversial.

I wonder if the issue is how many of the midwives actually bf theirs. As I believe the rates have been low for a while.
Advice from inexperienced people can be unhelpful.
I bf for over a year but now I think the issues I experienced could have been caused by a hormonal imbalance that could have been addressed.

Because so many people struggle they can't know if there is a genuine issue.

One of my friends who was not supported to breastfeed put a complaint in at the hospital and they have taken steps to address it and hopefully help future mothers.

You can campaign against formula companies and all the shit they try to pull. babymilkaction.org

You can correct myths and misinformation (plenty of it on this thread). But try to do so without judging mums (I dunno if people think I succeed). Because I think almost all mums try really hard.

I don't see what telling new mums they should have "tried harder" or been more educated achieves, really. Blaming the victim, in my eyes. There are always some mums who managed to keep breastfeeding despite really difficult odds, and that's great, but I'm not sure going round telling others they should have struggled through too is that helpful. It just makes people feel guilty, and anyway, it shouldn't have to be a struggle, that's the point.

And yes, countries with high bf rates don't need this amount of support because their CULTURE supports it. People grow up seeing bf all around them and know how to do it. That is not the case here.

I agree naty I think it's hard to advise well on bf without personal experience, and probably most midwives don't have it.

Domperidone (the anti sickness drug) is also widely used especially by mums of premature babies (like me). It's not a crazy thing to suggest and it works for lots of women. Having said that, it's really up to the individual how far they choose to take it, and true low supply is known to be an issue in I think about 2% of women?

Breast abscesses are often an after effect of untreated mastitis which is made worse by not feeding/expressing.

Nobody supported me.
The BF MW on the ward was just rough with me, hurt me & made comments about the size / shape of my breasts. (V Small for my size - think A cup with a big frame broad back, large limbs even when correct weight. My breasts never changed during pregnancy.)
I had to go to the hospital 5 miles away to get support and my usual community midwife was not working.

And women with HIV can breastfeed although they are only advised to do so exclusively to protect the gut.

MPB I'm sorry you had such a crap time. It makes me rage when ' support' is so rubbish. I'm a volunteer and spend half my time correcting crap women have learnt from hcps. It's not good enough, we are letting women down.

Some facts might help here.

Bf rates are rising in the UK and have been rising for 30 years.

It really does not matter if a midwife has bf or not. Experience without understanding can lead to incorrect advice - we see this every day on MN, with people using their own experience as a template for what others might do or even should do.

It's rarely possible to say for sure if an individual woman 'could have breastfed' if she had done/been told/tried x, or y, or z.

It's not possible to say how many women 'cannot' breastfeed. For example, we know it is vanishingly rare to produce no milk, but some women who have serious difficulty (for whatever reason) in producing sufficient milk choose to partially breastfeed. For another example, mother A might struggle for weeks in order to overcome an issue, whereas mother B might decide not to struggle as long because of other factors in her life, and mother C might stop after 6 hours because she is totally demoralised and scared, and mother D might stop after one feed because she was not very keen in the first place. In addition, reasons for not breastfeeding may be a mix of social, cultural, emotional, psychological, physical....there are hardly any cases where it is a clear cut issue of 'impossible' to breastfeed.

Even women who have no breasts can breastfeed - that is, give their baby milk at their breast. There is a case study on the web of a woman who did just this, using a supplementary nursing system....fiddly, awkward, at first, but this was something that mother wanted very much to do....of course not everyone would want to do that, nor should they be made to feel they 'ought' to want to do it, but it is an option and mothers in that situation should be made aware of it.

If a mother wants to breastfeed, there is therefore hardly ever any reason why she should not be enabled and supported to do so. Not one of the long list of reasons why a mother 'can't' breastfeed given by Juno stands up to scrutiny. This does not mean a mother with those circumstances should breastfeed - mothers should decide for themselves where their limits are.

There is no room for moral superiority, judgment, or outrage in any of this discussion. Or I wish there wasn't....

Celtic I only needed motivational support, as my technique was fine as my breasts and nipples were just fine (the soreness I mentioned was from my CS) it was there wasn't enough coming out. My boy was a 10lber!

If I had a third I'd try again. And actually coached my sister through those difficult early weeks and she fed hers until they got to one.

The BF MW on the ward was just rough with me, hurt me & made comments about the size / shape of my breasts.

I wish I was more surprised, but I'm not.

Some of the MW on the postnatal wards I've had to deal with were just shockingly insensitive and harsh.

You are so vulnerable just after you've had a baby. I know they are busy and I'm sure often stressed, but sometimes their unkindness can be breathtaking.

I will never forget the midwife who came and shouted at me because I hadn't woken my baby to feed her 3 hours after the start of the last feed. Even though I was asleep after being awake ALL night feeding the baby.

When my mother came to visit me and saw me sticking my newborn baby's feet in cold water to wake her up (as I had been taught) she was

Looking back I can't really understand why I didn't just ignore her. But I couldn't at the time. I was totally overwhelmed.

Join

But it ISN'T true.

Mothers aren't necessarily the best caregivers.

Playfellows
Out of all the things I did to try and BF her attitude and treatment is the only thing that still makes me cry 5 years on. I can still feel the pain. I am totally fine with my choice.

She came down to children's ward when we were admitted too and was just a cocky cow.

I am bf my dd, I don't need help and support but I would like to not be thought of as a wierdo. Unfortunately that's not going to happen - as per weebairn I already have had friends and family asking when am I moving her onto bottles, I get asked 'are you STILL breast feeding' (she's 4 mths) and also the you're not going to be one of those wierdos still feeding when they're one are you..
Consequently I won't feed her in public, it's either at home in private or a private lockable bf room (or toilet) when out. It bothers me, but I accept it as that's how it is round here - ff is the norm.

All I can say is that in hospital with ds1 when he was born, I faced massive pressure to formula feed and it wasn't because I couldn't breastfeed.

I fed him immediately he was born, he went to sleep, I had a reaction to the epidural and was really sick and he woke up while that was happening and though I pressed the thing, no one came to bring him to me from the cot next to my bed (which I couldn't reach because my legs were dead)

So he went back to sleep

and then later on, he was asleep and they came and asked if he had fed and I said no, because no one gave him to me, and then he woke up and I got my mum to put him in my bed, and then they said you can't have him there for health and safety reasons.

And then they said if he does not feed soon we will give him a bottle
So I said I am keeping him in my bed you morons

and they gave up, and then he did feed and continued to do so for 16 months.

I am still so angry about that now, and he is 10.

I have bf in public lots noone has even noticed. Try not to let it worry/ bother you.
The only way to change attitudes is to ignore anti bf. And get on with it people will cease to think anything unusual of it.
I had some pressure about weaning at 6m I just did what I felt right

The thought of me breast feeding disgusts me. I cried when my milk came in as I felt revolting. Hey I have issues. I am expecting a flaming for having this opinion. However what I think is the problem is your friend felt the need to share her opinion with you. I don't think it is supportive of your choices, which she should really. I have told friends I didn't want to breast feed but would never tell them they were being disgusting when they bf their babies. I don't find other women bf disgusting. Even if your friend does it is her problem not yours.

I didn't breastfeed. Physically, could I have continued? Probably. The area I'm in certainly encouraged breastfeeding more than most areas. Mentally? I had severe depression and anxiety, and it had triggered certain aspects of my PTSD (the actual breastfeeding triggered this). I didn't want to continue and I was suicidal, I'm fairly sure that, even if physically it was fine, that it was much better for DD for me to stop so that my MH didn't get even worse, which would have prevented me from caring for her and bonding with her.

spanky no one would flame you for having those feelings (I hope) :( :(

It sounds as if they come unbidden, and you would prefer not to have them....it's sad to feel that way.

Why is it offensive to say that many women who ff could have bf?

It would be offensive to say that they are bad mothers because they ff. Or that they could have bf if they just cared a bit more or tried a bit harder (implied judgements in there).

But it's not offensive to say that they could have bf, it's the truth.

A shift in attitudes (so fewer people like OP's friend think it's okay to say silly things like bf is disgusting) would enable more women to bf.

An increase in knowledge about bf and support to get it established would enable more woment to bf.

A change in societal structures (so mothers taking exams can have breaks to bf, to use one example that's cropped up above) would help more women keep going with bf.

I don't think women should be forced to bf, or made to feel bad if they choose not to. But I do think it's patronising to women who want to bf if they are wrongly told that large numbers CAN'T.

Thank you JoinYourPlayFellows a lot of insane nonsense has been spouted on this thread by people who clearly have their own issues with BF.

oh, tiktok said it much better than me.

undecided, I agree about challenging the idea that it is actually 'offensive' to state that more women could breastfeed.

'More women could breastfeed if the necessary support, information and practical knowledge were more easily available ' is not saying 'every individual woman who does not breastfeed should breastfeed'.

It is not saying (or should not be saying) 'if you did not breastfeed, it's because you did not know enough' .

It is not saying (or should not be saying) 'if you did not breastfeed, or if you stopped breastfeeding early on, you should have tried harder.'

It's not 'offensive' to state that many women are mistaken in thinking they cannot breastfeed - it is the truth. Practically every day, we get a post on MN from someone who has been told they should stop breastfeeding (or not even start) for a spurious reason. Women whose more detailed stories reveal rubbish help and support from the start believe the reason they did not have a good bf experience lies with their own bodies, or something they did 'wrong' - they even blame themselves years later.

A different reaction to self-blame is to attack the idea that more women could breastfeed - the sometimes apparently willful misinterpretation of an observation, served up with a side order of outrage and anger and horrified resentment.

Well. This thread has moved on somewhat!

My friend's comment wasn't aimed at me as such - it came up as part of a wider conversation about parenting. At that point no one else present knew how I've chosen to feed my baby - and they also don't know, as I do, that friend has other issues in her past that have at least influenced her opinion of bfing. Hence why I can let her opinion slide - I don't agree with it, and she knows that, but I understand why she feel like that and I accept it. But I couldn't let her spread blatant misinformation about bfing without challenging it - there were other women present who might one day want to breast feed.

As for dumping her because of it - well, I don't know how many friends you have who have stood by you through everything and who you know you could call at 3am and say "help" and they'd drop everything to do exactly that, no questions asked - but I've just got the one. Her. It'd take more than a disagreement about bfing for me to want her out of my life.

I so agree tiktok, it's the glib acceptamnce of this idea too that is actually a barrier to breastfeeding support.

Watching my SIL giving up breastfeeding after a few weeks, her night time use of formula curtailed her own supply, but she herself said that she is "just one of the many women who can't breastfeed" and accepted that as a fact without seeking help.

Knowing that lactation failure is rare may provide impetus to women to seek help.