To ask where the self rightoueus bf/ff thread has gone

[pigletmania]

It was here this morning, but not now.

But I get most awfully tired of being told that there can't possibly have been a problem that wouldn't have been solved if I had had more support/had only been Norwegian/had not only been educated enough/had only known that breast was best.

Since we are sharing experiences let me share mine. The short version. I tried to breast feed. My milk did not come through and d was on the verge of being admitted to SCBU due to the speed and extent of her weight loss and dehydration. The MWs wouldn't let me have a bottle because I should persevere. I spent the next 4hrs with them trying to get dd to latch on on one breast while trying to express from the other and nothing. When after that dd fell asleep from exhaustion we tried expressing from both sides for a couple of hours, all we succeeded in getting was blood. A couple of days after that dd was being ff as still no milk. I was distraught to the extent of trying to kill myself.

Years later I shared my experience on a thread on MN and I was directly accused of not caring about my daughter and being too stupid to understand how to care for her. I was already low, it pushed me over the edge, I went to the drawer got out a knife and punished myself. The next day I did find the courage to go to the Dr and ask for help but the guilt at my failure still gets me. I have been strong and this is the first feeding thread I have read for a while. I just wanted people to try and understand why some people find some of the more extreme comments so upsetting.

So, duck tape is the answer?
Evangelicals don't see the damage they can cause, being filled with righteousness and all that.
Minus, how is your daughter now?

That is so horrible, Minus

My dd is now a bouncing school child who is taller than about 50% of her class and is in average weight range for her height. :)

With a strong mother who loves her and is a survivor. Bet she doesn't care how she was fed as a baby either, just that you are still there for her.

Minus ever so sorry you went through such struggles. I hope both you and your daughter are ok now. :)

At no point have I said on this or any other thread that mother who FF are useless and should be given a hard time.

I do think that there is a huge number of mothers who choose to FF and as much as they shouldn't be criticised for it at all, there is room for discussion on the subject as long as it is informed and objective.

None of the "I'm a better mother then you are" crap.

Here here Downby.

"But I get most awfully tired of being told that there can't possibly have been a problem that wouldn't have been solved if I had had more support/had only been Norwegian/had not only been educated enough/had only known that breast was best."

TOTALLY agree with this.

My dd got nothing but breastmilk in the 7 weeks that she lived. She still died probably of SIDs but we don't yet have an answer.

If your baby dies, you already wonder about what you could have done differently and tend to blame yourself. You don't need anyone pointing out on an internet forum where you may have gone wrong after the fact.

I wasn't saying you had SurprisEs,hope you didn't think that. I was just explaining why IME these threads often end up as bun fights. There is usually someone who cannot separate a discussion where ideas to support mothers to continue to breast feed are put forward and being down right offensive to people who formula feed. IYSWIM. There can be many sensible posters on a thread but it only takes one or two to cross the line for it to become offensive and descend into a bunfight.

I am a big fan of bf btw and would welcome more support for mothers as some people would be more able to continue with support (please note I say some not all). I have had many a disagreement at work when colleagues have told a woman to give up breast feeding un-necessarily due to medication prescribed. I have also had to sit and console a woman faced with the choice of accept chemotherapy and give up breast feeding or keep breast feeding but have a very slim chance of seeing her baby's second birthday.

I clearly said me and DH were BOTH ff, but I'm bf my DS. We both have degrees and are healthy and happy so I don't know why everyone's addressing me accusing me of being anti-ff or judgey.
I'm also being told I should mind my own business in terms of how others decide to parent. No ones forcing you to join this discussion, if you don't want to join in don't.

Cory - you've translated my comment as a judgement on your personal experience, but it isn't. You know it isn't. You must also know that the evidence from other countries supports the view that intractable bf problems that can't be overcome even with the best care ARE very rare.

I suspect you believe that expert help with serious bf problems is often forthcoming, but in my experience it's not. There is a dearth of lactation consultants in the UK - and it's a lactation consultant you generally need to see if midwives and bf counsellors are unable to help. I think some people mistake kind, well meant or enthusiastic support for bf with help which is truly skilled, which sadly is pretty rare in the uk.

I think if we started taking bf failure more seriously in a medical sense (which we don't at the moment - we are far too quick to either write problems off as being insoluble or dismiss them as being trivial, there bye putting all the weight on the shoulders of new mums to deal with them, leaving them feeling they didn't try hard enough) we would have far fewer mums feeling like minus. Bf 'failure' is not an irrelevance, it deserves the same amount of sympathy and skilled medical attention as any other physical problem which impacts on people's life choices and self image.

Oh chip. I'm so sorry.

Good on you for being so honest and sieving out the bullshit.

DP asked why I was sobbing so I showed him your post. He thinks you are one brave lady, As do I.

:( chip (((ummn hugs)))

Minus some women, not all, would be successful at bf with support. Many more would if the support was there in sufficient numbers and in adequate circumstances. I've mentioned this in a thread before so sorry for repeating myself: after DD left hospital I went to one of those bf groups. I was the only young mum in there. The group totally focused on my age and at no point did they actually help me with any of my struggles. Never went back. What a load of shite that "support" group was. I figured thing out in the end, reading. But what if I'd relied on them?

Chipmonkey, sorry for your loss of your dd. . But if knowing that bf prevents some SIDS deaths - well, isn't it a good thing for this fact to be widely discussed in relation to the subject of ff/bf? If it's not currently a fact the majority are aware of?

oh dear, I didn't mean to make anyone cry! Just wanted to say that if the thread linked to SIDS, I'm glad it was pulled.
But thank you, I am only brave sometimes, though!

Yes SurpriEs, that's what I was saying in the second paragraph of my post at 00:01.

shagmund I think yes, maybe in antenatal classes, before the Mums make their decision, it might well be worth pointing out that there are fewer incidences of SIDS in bf babies. However on an internet forum, there are all kinds of mothers, including bereaved Mums or Mums whose dc have SNs. If dd had been ff ( And God knows, going by the experience I had in NICU, she could have ended up being ff) it would be just another stick to beat myself up with, if people here were linking to SIDS on a thread I stumbled on.

Shag there is no definite proof of what causes SIDS. Look at the co sleeping thread, They have been trying to work it out for so long but they still do not know the cause.

I don't believe that expert help is available to everybody who needs it, shagmund; I have read enough about the question to know that this is not the case.

But I still have a problem with the fact that if you mention on MN that you had problems breastfeeding people will jump to conclusions about the circumstances and rush in to tell you that your whole experience would have been different if only you had had X, Y and X- before they bother to ascertain whether you did in fact have X, Y and Z.

In my case I ticked a lot of boxes: Scandinavian background,everybody I knew had breastfed, I was well educated in general and well read on this particular subject, all midwives and HVs I met very pro-bf, the hospital lactation consultant was closely involved in supporting me.

But it was still a disaster, because I assumed that if all the usual problems were covered (and I had read enough about them), there couldn't be any problems. It was treating myself like a statistic- which is exactly what happens on these breastfeeding threads. Mums get treated like statistics, they get told what their breastfeeding experience must have been like, instead of asked what it was like.

I know, and I was in agreement with you.

Not everyone has access to antenatal classes and forums are a place they go to learn.
SIDS is undetermined death. I hate it when it people try to link it with anything else.

chipmonkey am so sorry, that;s something no one should have to go through.

(Before anyone starts I'll repeat I was FF, DP was ff, everyone I bloody know was FF and we're all normal functioning adults).

As a 21 year old, in my social circles, it is much more the norm to ff. I get given dirty looks on the train and feed my baby upstairs when our friends visit because I know how awkward it would make them feel. It's bloody hard work, and physically exhausting, but in my opinion worth it to give my baby the best start. I find it so annoying that through fear of upsetting those people who chose to ff (for whatever reason, personal or physical) it has made the effort I put into breastfeeding seem less worthwhile. Everytime I feed DS in public I have to hear all the stories of why people couldn't breastfeed. I don't start preaching about BF everytime they whip out a bottle, but it seems okay to do it the other way round! I think it's hard work and those of us that manage it should be able to feel proud without being accused of putting down those who ff for whatever reason!

My cousins pregnant and when talking about breastfeeding she announced to everyone that she didn't like the thought of something sucking on her nipples. At which point everyone chirps in how FF never did them any harm etc etc, making my efforts and hard work feeding DS devalued I feel.