To ask where the self rightoueus bf/ff thread has gone

[pigletmania]

It was here this morning, but not now.

Oh feather, I'm so sorry

It is stories like yours that I wish people could see when they ask why people who FF are so defensive

Please try not to be hard on yourself, what else could you have done?
And as for missing out on something wonderful, I have a friend who had no problems breastfeeding and yet still hated every minute of it (cluster feeding) to the extent that she is now thinking about not having any more children. So it's not the case that BF is always this wonderful experience even when it works.

anyway in a few months you can start solids, which is a whole new experience and great bonding time

'I understand I am putting my baby's life in danger' WTF? this, in a hospital?
If this is not hysteria, I don't know what is. I ffed out of choice, and if anyone had made me sign such a statement I would have gone ape shit.

Featherblue Your child can have an amazing,healthy, happy life without being breastfed. Lots did, do and will continue to do. Take care of yourself.

Yes dialM in a hospital. I too would refuse to sign it. It seems to be only women who have tried to bf and given up that have to sign it rather than those who ff from the first feed. Really adds weight to my argument that you are treated worse if you try and fail than if you never try at all. Then people wonder why people don't want to try.

I have to say, Minus, that my experience of being offered formula is different to yours. I had a severe PPH after my last section and my milk supply was affected - presumably whoever was generous enough to donate their blood for transfusion wasn't heavily pregnant, so a lot of my hormones simply fell out on the floor. One of the paediatricians appeared and said DS2 needed feeding. I was bone dry but trying desperately to express, still in recovery. He said "he needs feeding. Don't make this about your vanity." I thunk he was right to do that. My son was his patient, that was what he needed, end of.

I think he was right too. I fully believe formula is the best option when the alternative is nothing. I remember saying that to one of the MWs between sobs. Unfortunately not all staff on maternity units are as sensible. They have very blinkered outlooks and cannot see the whole picture. I had no milk either btw. They just left us without even though my dd was becoming more and more sick.

minus your list of insults is great my fav though is, breast is best and if you cant see that i dont see why you bothered to become a mother, you obviously cant do whats right for your child. that was on here, i truly believe that some people are a bit insane.

My favourite was the thread where a woman who was a heavy cannabis user was told to keep BF because it was still better than formula

I didn't have a problem getting formula in postnatal but in retrospect I wonder if that's because it was my DH asking for it? He would just go up to the station and say we needed some formula -- got it. I'm pretty sure I would have had to go through more hoops, they were big on pushing BF (without giving any support for it of course).

I'm really amazed at the difference there must be between different hospitals. I got the BF info given to me at apps etc, but at no point did I see any medical professionals trying to 'push' BF. I was the only one in the hospital BF, everyone else appeared to go straight to formula, and I didn't see anyone bat an eyelid. Which of course is a good thing if the woman has already decided that she definitely wants to FF, no woman should be pressured on feeding, don't know how the staff would have been with anyone who was unsure how they wanted to feed though. A good friend of mine, who is a nurse herself, said that when she told the nurses that she wanted to go straight to formula, she got the impression that they were relieved, as they couldn't be arsed didn't have the time to help women with BFing.

Oh that's sad what

By pushing I meant they were a bit overboard about it, I even had the cleaner telling me I must BF which frankly I didn't think was any of her business.

I think as long as people are informed about the pros and cons of formula feeding and breastfeeding then it is their choice how they feed their babies. I think there should be more support available for everyone though. I had to give dairy free formula to DS3 for 2 weeks without properly understanding how to make up bottles. Also our local breastfeeding group is for mums of children under one only. If you want help with a 13 month old having a nursing strike or if you need support feeding your 2nd while also looking after a lively toddler then it's tough luck, grr.

Tis very unfair, I do feel for the nurses too though. I didn't feel that I got sterling maternity care in general, though won't go into that, was just glad me and baby were both ok and I luckily didn't have too many problems feeding, but the nurses in fairness did seem to be very busy. Definitely not enough resources for feeding or maternity care in general methinks, that seems to be the one thing that is consistant between all the hospitals.

Wasn't around yesterday to answer the responses to my post, and short of time now, but quickly to try to pick up on the comments (if I miss anything please let me know as I'm trying to answer all criticism).

1. When a mother cannot breastfeed, or a baby cannot breastfeed, it's only fair that formula be made available FOC. The system we have for that is the NHS, which is my its nature a medical system. We don't have a better one, but if we could create one, that would be fine too. I'm not attempting to medicalise FF, but to provide a system where parents can get it without having to pay the outrageous amount it costs. Of course parents may not want to go through such a system, and formula should always be widely available (as it is now) for purchase. I'm not sure how this was unclear from my post, or how this can mean that I am not "pro-choice" .

2. I did NOT say (and do not appreciate words being put into my mouth) that parents never make an informed choice. What a ridiculous statement. Many, many parents make an informed choice, based on their own personal circumstances, to FF, mix feed or BF. The point is that many, many people do NOT make informed choices, and many others find themselves in a position where they are forced down a route that they did not want. Many parents do not understand the consequences of some of their choices (myself included with DS1). Ergo, not informed choice. This is unfair, and can only be rectified by reining in inaccurate and misleading formula advertising, and improved feeding choice information.

3. I probably explained the formula packaging part badly. I'll try again. I don't mean unbranded (which without looking back may have been the term I used). Of course brands need to differentiate between themselves in terms of name, and if they do add anything to the product (which has PROVEN benefit, rather than the many non-proven claims) then that would be acceptable. I would rather see all brands being forced to add ingredients that had proven benefit though. The second part would be to remove idealising images from the packaging (which are against the WHO code but remain on our cartons) so a plain package with brand name and information about the specific components would be sufficient to allow customers to purchase their preferred brand.

4. Marketing. I fail to understand why people get so defensive about the idea that marketing may influence them. Of course it does - it influences EVERYONE. The simple and oft-quoted argument to show it does is that if it didn't they wouldn't do it. It's simple, but it's true. And there is plenty of evidence to show it works. I know I'm influenced by marketing and that doesn't mean that I therefore feel that I'm less intelligent or more gullible than the general population - it's just normal. Does watching a formul advert make a mum decide to not breastfeed? No, of course not. But a constant stream of formula messages gets into the subconscious and affects how we view the product. It's as simple as that.

5. The NHS doesn't give clear and sufficient information about feeding choices. It doesn't give proper information about the benefits and downsides of each option. It DOES push BFing in a rather rubbish and ineffective way which just annoys people - and it is absolutely awful at offering proper support postnatally.

I was asked the question as to whether the NHS should stop antental "promotion" of BFing and just focus more on postnatal, and I answered the question to include all areas that I feel are important to support the mothers who want to BF, to stop the undermining of BFing and to support those who can't BF or who choose to FF. This is my opinion based on my experience in infant feeding support and promotion. I'm not necessarily right, but I was asked my opinion, and it's free to be discussed by anyone on this open, public forum. But I'd thank people to refrain from personal attacks about my beliefs or focuses which are being guessed and assumed (incorrectly) from a forum post. I would remind readers that it is very hard to write - and therefore understand from reading - a post which explains all espects of a complex issue. I'm always happy to answer questions and explain my posts further but for people to make assumptions and attacks, which, in this case at least, are erroneous, is just not constructive.

I just never quite understand why the people who get so wound up about breastfeeding dont concentrate their efforts on the poor little children you see in the NSPCC adverts. I accept that breast is best but equally it is only one factor in the much bigger picture of a child's whole upbringing.

It needs to be about support not posters and 'breast is best' messages on cartons of formula. Unfortunately making people who care feel bad is much easier than providing useful support.

Fantastic post, organiccarrotcake. X