To ask where the self rightoueus bf/ff thread has gone

[pigletmania]

It was here this morning, but not now.

I can't see a MW not being put through disciplinary procedure for talking to someone like that. You should complain Minus.

minus who has said those things to you? Other than the MN people? Are they actual word for word quotes or an interpretation (honestly?).

You have every right to complain - nothing to do with SS whatsoever. Of course I understand that it's a scary thing to do and if it's not for you then I'm absolutely not trying to pressurise you. It's just that some people find it cathartic :)

They are direct quotes. The first 2 were the MW on the post natal ward. The third one was a woman in the baby changing room in one of the shops in town, the fourth a woman in a cafe and the final one was XH's lawyer in court.

2 x midwives should be sacked (please do consider complaining - if nothing else to stop someone else going through the same thing - NOTHING will come of it in terms of anything bad happening to you. Contacting AIMS for support may help even if you take it no further).

The woman in the changing room doesn't deserve to have a mouth to talk out of. Ditto the cafe mum. Ignorant bitches.

Anything a lawyer on t'other side says should be ignored as something that is designed to throw you. He would have known which buttons to press. Should be reported to the law society though nonetheless.

I promise, you've had the most extreme bad luck and this is NOT normality. I swear to you that there are literally thousands of women (and men) who are desperate to make things better and work really, really hard to try to do what they can.

((hugs)) to you. Very, very distressed to hear this :( :(

Agree the MW should be sacked. The rest just sound ignorant.

Organic do you think Breastfeeding Counsellors should be a part of wards? And should they be paid by the NHS if so?

SurprisEs they are, in some hospitals. In my region we have peer supporters in the wards, mostly paid and some volunteers to fill in gaps. We also have a team of specialist BFing nurses are are either IBCLCs or IBCLCs in training. We have paid peer supporters who contact mums within 24 hours of leaving hospital, a week post birth and 1 month post birth, a 24 hour helpline and unlimited home visits as required. Paid by the PCT (for now). They run BFing groups daily (weekdays) as well.

It's still not nearly anything like enough but it's a darn site better than some of you have reported.

Hospital is very keen to get baby friendly, too, not surprisingly.

What area is that? If it's ok to ask and not to private of course.

Sounds like an amazing support system.

West Yorkshire. Don't mind you asking. Plenty of people on here know who I am :)

No, it's not amazing. It hardly scratches the surface. Yet it's the best I've ever seen which is awfully sad :(

Not, of course, to say that I'm not grateful for what we have. But I'm also not going to sit back and say it's fine, thanks, just because it's better than many other PCTs.

Do you feel like the NHS should preach (sorry, couldn't find a more suitable word) less and invest more? That the service should be equal across the uk?

Sorry, questioning you here. Lol
Feel free to tell me to bugger off. Just curious.

Interrogating was the word I was looking for, not questioning.

I'm from Cornwall. My experience is totally different to minus They just didn't give a damn if I'd fed my baby or not.

LOL @ interrogating. Not at all - I can talk about this stuff all day .

No, I think the NHS should continue to educate (NOT preach) - although the education needs to be far more effective. Not patronising, irritating posters but educational posters. Education about BFing in schools. Proper antenatal education to include the risks of formula feeding so people who have a choice CAN make an INFORMED choice (teaching this in the context of understanding the risks of FF V the risks of NOT feeding formula where it's indicated), what to expect WRT BFing, common BFing myths (eg having to stop if you get mastitis - worst thing you can do - risks of mixed feeding - normal behaviour of a BF newborn - reasons why people think they don't have enough milk - etc).

Banning of the promotion/marketing of formula milk full stop. Formula to be sold in plain packaging only. Banning of "breastfeeding support" by formula companies. Formula and bottles, etc, to be made available free on prescription where medically indicated (complicated, sure, but possible). Formula, I believe, should be available as follows:

• Free to mothers for whom it's medically indicated (for mother or baby) (and with proper support for BFing it is possible to work this out)
• Available as is currently without limit in supermarkets, etc, but in plain (ie not idealised which is against the WHO code) packaging. Formula is clearly required for those who choose not to BF (or choose to mix feed) but it's not medically indicated. I AM ABSOLUTELY PASSIONATELY PRO-CHOICE, as it were, but it MUST be a proper, informed choice, otherwise it's just not fair.
• UK law to fall in line with the WHO code and for proper sanctions to be made against formula manufacturers when they break the law. At the moment the law is flouted all the time and the only sanction is that they have is to change their marketing. For instance - "closer to breastmilk" claim had to be removed - but it had already done its damage. The Big Cup advert scaring parents about iron had to have a teeny tiny line added for about 10 seconds to say that cow's milk is not a good source of iron. No shit. Breastmilk is, though, as is - you know - food. Too much iron is dangerous but they forgot to mention that. Claims that formula supports the immune system "like breastmilk" (or with the implication that it's supporting it like breastmilk) continue. Aptamil continues to try to associate its product with breastmilk by claiming it's got 30 years of experience researching it. Maybe so, but this is insinuation, not saying anything actually concrete, which is misleading and should be illegal.

Then, postnatal support should be excellent. A very minimum what we have but really far more. A complete package.

But organic - isn't this info out there already? I was certainly aware of the benefits of bf when dd was born - nearly 8 years ago. I read about how to "do it". I intended to bf - always assumed I would (and could).

But when it came down to it, there was no support available. This was the crucial thing. We need less talk of banning formula and more physical support for new mothers.

And I really don't agree with this "demonisation" of formula. It's not fags! Why should we dictate who is and isn't allowed it FFS? It is a perfectly acceptable alternative to breastmilk. My child would be dead without it.

putrifyno I agree... What's with this demonisation of formula? If you're having a baby, you should be smart enough to decide how it gets fed. There should at least be info on how to make up a bottle feed; I didn't have a clue! That's more dangerous than anything, I think. I think the midwives knew I was struggling, but didn't want to offer me formula; they wanted me to ask for it. I don't know how far they were willing to let it go, how long they were willing to let my son go without food; 24 hours? 48 hours? Three days?

And it is very patronising to assume that all mothers DON'T make an informed choice. Obviously we are all feeble minded and swayed purely by advertising when we make our parenting decisions.

In Organic's scenario above - feeding my dd would have become medicalised! I would have at to be poked and prodded by yet another HCP professional who would then write me a prescription? WT fucketty Fuck? That would have made me feel MUCH better about the whole thing I am sure! Maybe the prescription would also come with a big red "failure" sticker for my head?

I am very glad that I never discovered MN til my dd was much older. The BF nazis on here would have made me extremely depressed I think. Organic is pro-choice? Um methinks not.

And god forbid, if I was purely choosing to ff, I would not be allowed to choose a formula? Unbranded, unlabelled? They are NOT all identical. I remember a bit of trial and error finding one that worked best for dd. Nothing at all to do with advertising.

Could I draw you attention to a really amazing example of demonisation, that occurred in this thread? I posted that I didn't really care how people fed their babies.

I was immediately rounded on for feeding my babies sub-optimally, and spreading dangerous messages. And that this attitude was at the heart of the problem)

Despite my repeated questions (with pretty big flags that the other poster had misunderstood my post, and was wrong to criticise my feeding choices - as I had not posted what they were), that poster did not respond, or acknowledge she might have got it wrong (let alone apologise).

I think that unapologetic and strident style of posting, which does not actually answer what has been posted, is a far greater problem than a pretty bland statement that someone else's choice isn't any of my business.

My problem with the anti-formula campaign is that it infantilises women -- as if women everywhere would BF if only they weren't brainwashed by all that slick marketing.

I think women FF either because they have to, or because they are influenced by their social environment, or because they just choose to, or because they don't get enough support.

(I'm talking about in the UK here, I know there are dodgier practices going on elsewhere.)

It all goes back to this idea that women who don't BF are ignorant or stupid, they just don't know that breast is best. I think at this point everyone knows that. But putting it into practice is much harder, so let's have more support for women instead of wasting all this energy on the formula companies.

ah x-post PF

I hadn't planned on posting on this thread as, quite honestly, it makes me cry every time I read it. I've spent every moment of every day of my daughter's 4 months of life trying to exclusively breastfeed, dealing with severe tongue tie, stage 4 upper lip tie, a bubble palate, low supply (due to her issues? my underactive thyroid?), nipple confusion, blah blah blah every problem in the book. I mix feed, but my DD probably only gets 1/3 of her needs from breastmilk. I'm heartbroken about it, not as much because of the health benefits (I still feel she will benefit from the breastmilk she's getting), but more because I feel we're missing out on something wonderful. Not to mention the convenience of breastfeeding vs bottles, etc.

I have had an astounding amount of support. Breastfeeding cafes, lactation consultant, supportive midwives, a very pro-breastfeeding mother who breastfed her children until 3-4yrs old, a very supportive mother-in-law who did the same. I did not whatsoever want for support. And it hasn't worked. Sometimes, it doesn't work. I'm heartbroken about it and am dealing with some PND because of it.

So I just had to comment on the suggestion that formula should be unlabeled, unmarked and prescribed by GPs. One of the lowest moments for me during this time was when I needed to supplement because my baby was starving and I tried to get some information about how to formula feed (how much, how to make it up, how to read clues, how to hold the bottle, how to comfort baby if not with the breast, etc) by going to the Aptimil website. No one close to me had ever bottle fed. We didn't know anything.

Before I was allowed to access the site I had to read and agree to a screen that said that I understood that breast was best and that I was basically ruining my child's health for life by using their product. It was gut-wrenchingly heartbreaking to someone spending all her time crying her eyes out over not being able to exclusively breastfeed.

Making formula a dirty secret, covered up like men's mags is not the answer.

I think all the information should continue to be available.

When the baby is born the mother should be asked how she wants to feed.. If she say ff then she should be offered advice on making up bottles.

If she says bf then she should be offered lots of support.

I agree that the main way formula can go wrong is if it's not made up properly.

IME they will never offer a bottle no matter how ill the baby has become. They just shout at you and tell you what a bad mother you are. Then give you more grief when you beg for and get a bottle.

One of my colleagues is retraining as a MW and she was telling me that on her post natal placement if a woman struggles and gives up bf they are read and made to sign a statement which imcludes phrases like 'I understand I am putting my baby's life in danger' Not very helpful and at no point are they actually offered support.

featherblue it sounds like you are doing a wonderful job.