To ask where the self rightoueus bf/ff thread has gone

[pigletmania]

It was here this morning, but not now.

Hiss I know exactly how you feel. DD was born when I had just turned 20. The same thing you describe was part of my experience. Demoralising...

Howlingwolf, we don't know what causes SIDS but we do know there is an association between bottle-feeding and unexplained deaths in babies, and parents need to be told this.

For a very long time the FSIDS (main UK SIDS organisation) refused to mention the role of bf in SIDS prevention because of uncertainties about the research. The strength of the evidence has accumulated to the point where they feel its acceptable to list breastfeeding as one of the things a parent can do to reduce the likelihood of SIDS.

And those of you who comment on the uncertainties in relation to SIDS advice - you can use the same arguments against advising women of the associations between prone sleeping and exposure to cigarette smoke. is anyone arguing for not telling parents about these things because we don't understand the link between them and SIDS?

yaya wrote that people are stuck in two camps, the second being... Had immense difficulties with breastfeeding but stuck with it with an almost psychotic determination, as the concept of bf was totally and overwhelmingly wrapped up with being a good mother and to fail at it would be catastrophic for how they see themselves

What a ridiculous statement - so just because I was determined to bf, despite my difficulties, I had a psychotic determination?! No, I had a determination to give my children the benefits of breastfeeding and I just because I am proud to say so it doesn't make me smug or putting down those who stop bf, it just males me proud of my achievement in the face of the difficulties I faced in doing so.

It's ridiculous that mums who bf should have to hide how they feel about their bf achievements for fear of upsetting those who have difficuties that led them to decide to stop or to women who geuinely could not.

If you can't bf, of course you should NOT ever feel bad
if you chose to stop because the difficulties are too imense for you then you should not put any insecurities you feel about that (if you have any, and I'm not saying you should!) on others and why do some women lie about it and say they couldn't when it was that they made the decision to stop for whatever reason?! Just be honest and be secure with your decision and don't take any bf mum who is proud of her perseverance as a slight on you!

I haven't read the other thread so am just commenting on this one.

I really don't care how other people feed their children.

BUT

Bf DD was really really tough during the first 4 months. She just fed all the bloody time. She was in hospital with gastroentritis at 3 weeks old and that was really a point where I could've turned into formula but didn't.

SIL mentioned on every single bloody family occasion that she couldn't bf, didn't have enough milk, baby cried all the time etc. When the truth was she wanted to feed formula because it was more structured, she wanted to go out (and did, got very drunk and had to be carried home, baby was 4 weeks old), and she had mastitis right after going onto formula (baby was one week old) so she had milk.

Her comment to me fom her and all her family was always "how lucky were you bf was so natural an easy". No it wasn't. Cried a lot, exhausted for the first 6 weeks. But her failure to just be honest and say " I FF because I wanted to" made my effort seem worthless.

No, I wasn't looking for admiration but turning my hard work into luck wasn't very nice either.

Who cares if you choose to FF? Just be honest about it.

I'm aware some people can't, so please don't jump on my throat. Just sharing my experience.

a very good point from surpriseE

But shagmund, you posted above that what I did was medically inadvisable. Don't you think that's setting the bar a teensy bit too high?

Of course people who have breast fed have every right to be proud and have the right to express this pride. However there are some who cannot express that pride without demeaning others. It is that attitude that people object to.

I also object to the implication that I must be lying about my experience because it doesn't fit people's prejudices.

Back to the levels of preaching and narrow-mindedness involved from either side being a factor in how your choice is viewed by others who don't want to be pressurised at a vulnerable time to either FF or BF.
So it is less what your personal choice was, and more about the judging of others for not having made the same choice. Yes to the first, no to the second.

Want some toast?

hiss and runningwilde, I struggled to establish breastfeeding with dc1. There were many tears of frustration in the first 2 weeks. I almost gave up but thankfully didn't and the baby and I both got the hang of it. I ended up exclusively bf her for a year. I have been ebf-ing dc2 for 5 months. Yes, I am proud of the fact the fact that I didn't give up but I read stories on here every day that make me realise that I was lucky both that I got good advice and that there weren't any significant physical problems preventing bf from being established. There is more to my achievements in my life than how I fed my children. Eg people constantly comment on how well mannered dc1 (age 2) is, and that makes me proud. I realise that parenting is a marathon not a sprint and how I fed them is but a vvv small thing in the grand scheme of things. If they both turn out to be great people, who are kind and have empathy and make others feel good then I will feel spectacularly proud of myself. So yes, much as I am happy it all worked out, I also have the empathy for those who weren't as lucky and still feel sad about it. I am on another thread about childbirth with a lovely lady whose child is in his 40s and she still feels bad for formula feeding. So even if you don't mean to come across as judgey, it is still important to recognise the impact of your words. Yes, great to be proud of this achievement but I wouldn't feel so great if it made other people feel bad, especially knowing that you need to approach parenthood like paula radcliffe in the first 10 seconds of her races, rather than Usain Bolt.

If you read what I actually wrote instead of getting on your high horse, RunningWilde, you'd see that I was talking about the breastfeeding women who like to shame other women who use formula. So unless you identify yourself as someone who likes to shame other women, I wasnt talking about you. Unless you do like to shame other women, in which case I am talking about you

Can I also say that as a teacher, I have the opportunity to be preachy and judgy of parents every day and could be full of excellent advice on how to educate and parent and socialise your children to maximum effect, backed up with statistics and experience and all that jazz.
There could be cribsheets and workshops and parenting classes.
But I try not to, because most people are doing the very best they can most of the time. And it would be wrong to think that my way is the only path.

Great post novice, I do feel empathy too, I just don't get why some people lie (some people! Some! Not all!) about it! I know how hard bf is through my struggles so I really do sympathise with people who struggle

What you wrote fits in pretty well on me, YaMa , though in my defence I never shamed other women.

Getting back to my previous posts, what makes me angry about the jumping to conclusions and telling other women what their experiences must be is that it puts breastfeeding promotion in a bad light. It puts other people off. I don't want that. I still think breastfeeding is a good thing (I went on to breastfeed a second baby, albeit more cautiously). I don't want people to feel uncomfortable when they find themselves next to a breastfeeding promoter at a party.

It's the same with home-births. I think statistically they are an excellent thing and to be promoted, but you are not going to achieve that by telling the woman who nearly died from eclamptic fits on the delivery table that her caesarian must be caused by her being ignorant about the benefits of home birth, because statistically that is more common than eclamptic fits.

Come to think of it, when I go to see the doctor I don't want her to tell me that I must have a virus infection because statistically speaking that is the most likely case: I want her to look at me and ask how I feel.

Meditrina, the bottom line is that ff seems to be associated with higher rates of SIDS, along with a list of other things. Parents have a right to be given this information - what they do with it is up to them. Ff and bf mums do the best they can to keep their babies as safe as they can, within the limits of what's possible and do-able for them.

Isn't the mother being 20 or under also seen as a risk factor in SIDS?
Is that going to be something you are also comfortable judging on?

I agree that adults have the right to be given information about BF/FF and all the other stuff they need to know about the risks and choices they will face. I think the main thread of argument here is the Force Feeding aspect of some towards delivering the information to others.
Yes to rational discussion, no to a metaphorical tube down the throat that chokes you and denies you choice.

Cory the situation you describe involves someone saying things that are cruel, stupid and simply incorrect.

I think in giving that as an example of inappropriate homebirth promotion is actually a rather sneaky way of trying to poison the waters on this subject.

What women need when they visit their doctor is a proper diagnosis and a recommendation for the best available treatment.

What women approaching their doctors or midwives need to make choices about place of birth or method of feeding is good quality, up to date and evidence based information, plus the opportunity to discuss their individual concerns around these issues. The lack of the second for many of us (time to talk) does not invalidate the need for the first. And yes - some of this information will be hard to understand and assimilate into our lives if we aren't given access to - shock horror - statistics (not a dirty word you know - not all statistics are 'damned lies' or meaningless, as long as we have some basic understanding of how they are arrived at).

The fact that some of you see it as a lie is odd. It's generally other women choosing not to disclose to you the full circumstances of what's often a very upsetting experience and just giving you a brief 'I couldn't' as a short hand for 'mind your own business' or 'too long to get into'. The entitlement some people feel to the full details is just weird But here's my reason for 'lying':

I really wanted to bf. I read up all about it before hand, bought pump, sling, met with bf support worker, went to bf class,talked about it with my sil who bf both of her children. I expected it to be very hard and painful at first, but was determined to succeed and give my daughter the best start I could.

But jesus christ it was painful. She latched on and off every minute, my nipples were cut and bleeding within 24 hours, it was agony. I dreaded her waking up and used to sit watching her sleeping and cry when she started to stir. It was fucking horrendous and I lasted 2 weeks before I gave up and my husband went and bought bottles & formula at nearly midnight. If I had to go through a 2 day induction with just g&a again or try to bf again for a few days, I would go through the induction. At least people believed me when I said I was in agony.

But you know, if anyone asks I say that 'I couldnt' because, well because fuck you for thinking I'm going to stand here in front of other people and talk about it and get upset about how I feel like I failed my daughter at the first hurdle. So you'll forgive me for feeling all 'defensive' at the implication that I'm just a liar

So how's that? I mean, I dont get to be absolved on medical grounds and I'm sure some people persevered through much worse. But does that excuse my 'lie' about how I couldnt bf? Like, are you happy now that you know bad I felt?

'but in my opinion worth it to give my baby the best start.'

Again, this can be seen as judgy. Those who can't bf, either because of reasons described by Cory and others, or because their baby was in SCBU and then transitional care, tube fed, and without a sucking reflex, don't get to make that choice, so there is an instant judgement by you that those babies haven't had 'the best start'.

There are a myriad of reasons Hiss why people don't breast feed. Mine was a combination of the baby in SCBU and a pair of pregnant friends who were so bloody evangelical about bfing that it put me off. A colleague had a friend who when challenged and lectured about not bfing pointed out that she hadn't said she wasn't going to not feed her baby, she just wasn't going to bf it.

We all make our own choices for our own reasons Hiss and that is something you have to learn to accept. My ds is now 16, bright, funny and healthy. I'm more concerned about his GCSE results and A level choices than I am about what I fed him all those years ago.

Downbye - there is no 'forced feeding' of research findings here. Posters quite rightly refer to the evidence when they are being challenged on the health benefits of bf, which happens all the time on these threads.

'Yes to rational discussion, no to a metaphorical tube down the throat that chokes you and denies you choice.' That's exactly what i felt about my evangelical bfing friends - except it was a metaphorical nipple.

as metaphorical nipple

'But jesus christ it was painful. She latched on and off every minute, my nipples were cut and bleeding within 24 hours, it was agony. I dreaded her waking up and used to sit watching her sleeping and cry when she started to stir. It was fucking horrendous'

Exactly the same thing happened to me with my first, I remember crying with the pain and trying not to get her wet. It hurt more than the birth and for so much longer. I remember fearing that pain with my second pregnancy more than the birth. It took me feeding almost two months before the pain and the destruction of my nipples stopped.
I fed both of mine for 7 months.
Would I feel another mother had failed if she gave up on day 2?
Would I fuck. I have no idea why I didn't.

Some babies get a better start in life than others - why can't we acknowledge this and do what we can to address the problems?