Do that many women really not have enough milk????

[Jammers]

I heard another mother today say she stopped breastfeeding because she "didn't have enough milk" and found myself getting really annoyed (in my head - I think I managed to smile sympathetically to the woman).

As I see it, people stop bf for reasons which fall braodly into one of two camps: medical or personal. (And I am simplifying slightly to make the point)

The medical reasons might include: mastitis, absess, repeated thrush, lactose intolerance in baby, very sore nipples, gestational diabetes etc. (I know all of these are surmountable but can make it more difficult to carry on)

The personal reasons might include: not enjoying it, finding it too tying, thinking your breasts should remain sexual, not being able to cope with the night feeds etc. None of these reasons would ever have stopped me from bf, however, at least they are honest and in certain circles it is brave to admit to them.

I feel that "I ran out of milk" is probably a cover for one of the personal reasons but masquerading as a medical reason, therefore inviting sympathy. I just think that if you can't be arsed to spend the time required to bf in the early weeks you should be brave enough to say so.

Am I wrong? Are there really that many women who don't have enough milk? (I now know 5 people claiming this) I'd like to know that my sense of anger is justified or be convinced that these women really have run out of milk.

Yawn...............

why do you need your anger to be justified - it's none of your business. It doesn't effect you personally so why do you care?

You're being very unfair to assume it's some sort of excuse. Yes, women who are truly unable to make enough milk are few and far between. But there are plenty women who assume they don't have enough due to feeding being more frequent than they expected for example, or who don't make enough because they've based feeding on a routine for example. This is rarely the fault of the mother - poor advice from health professionals is common, and pressure from the older generation who tended to bottle feed on a 4 hourly routine may well undermine successful breastfeeding.

I think you're being quite nasty and judgemental actually! Lots of women may believe they have a poor milk supply for many reasons and don't have access to knowledgeable support. Sometimes things like restricting a baby's time on the breast or scheduling feedings can dent a milk supply.

If you're angry that women wrongly believe they have a poor supply because the NHS doesn't invest enough in breastfeeding then fair enough. If you're angry with women because you don't feel they have a good enough excuse then that is unjustified.

Of course, in some cases women do genuinely have a poor milk supply.

I think if you look at countries where breastfeeding is the norm there are only very few women (somewhere between 5 & 1% I seem to recall) that cannot breastfeed for medical reasons...but I'm not sure if that includes people who can partially breastfeed for supply reasons.

However in countries like ours where breastfeeding just isn't fully supported or understood properly then supply can be seen as an issue, when in reality it isn't. Things like not understanding cluster feeding, growth spurts, not physically seeing how much milk the baby is getting and not knowing the other things you can check to make sure etc.

But I think supply could genuinely be an issue if breastfeeding isn't fully supported in the beginning. Early supplementation or strict routine feeding can impact on supply later on.

Agree with stickersarecurrency That's how I always understood it- that genuine medically-based supply problems are quite rare, but people often think or are told that they have supply probs. It comes down to the same old problem- not enough bf support and expert advice for mothers who want to bf.

I agree with bruhaha, no your anger is definately not justified and I think its really strange that it would even occur to you that it could be as it simply is none of your business/ does not concern you.

I didn't produce a drop of milk for any of my three babies. It transpired, after a raft of other health problems, that I had an autoimmune disease of the pituitary, and wasn't making the hormones required for milk production.

So yes, some people really do not make enough milk.

I wonder if a lot of the interventions we have in childbirth these days mean that many women get off to a bad start with breastfeeding and find it more difficult to make enough milk in the long term because there was a lot of supplementation at the start. I think that coupled with a lack of knowledge and support and an expectation that babies are not hungry if they've just fed 30 minutes earlier etc can cause a lot of women to feel they don't have enough milk.

I didnt have enough milk with DS1. Genuinely. But, it was due to bad latch - and not putting him to the breast enough. I did not stimulate enough milk production. Therefore I did not have enough milk. Not a lie. Not a cover up.

Jammers - for many women it most definitely is not an excuse because they 'can't be arsed' to breastfeed. My son is 2 months old and in that time I have (amongst other things) taken Domperidone; worn nipple shields and breast shells; massaged and expressed upwards of 8 times per day in an effort to produce more milk; had a 'babymoon'; co-bathed, and my son has been treated for a posterior tongue-tie. I have been reduced to tears on many occasions as yet again I have only produced a maximum of 120ml milk in a day and cannot feed my son. I have now finally accepted that I cannot produce enough milk for my (frequently starving) baby and am moving to formula feeding.

I am not looking forward to the first time I feed my son formula in public and have to contend with the silent disapproval from other (lucky) mothers who have not experienced issues with breastfeeding and think I can't be bothered. The decision regarding how you feed your baby, whether it be by breast or bottle, or both, is deeply emotional and it angers me that there are mothers out there who feel that women like me need to 'convince' them of their reasons and choices.

Well, I was listening and nodding along until you said you were angry ...

Always so glad that people who found it easy to do something like to judge those who don't/can't do what they did.

It happens a lot but it's rare that it happens for reasons which can't be resolved. Otherwise where would the human race be.

It's unfair to judge the women but you could direct your passion towards helping people - maybe become a peer supporter?

I think the v sad thing is that many (most??) people don't know WHY they might want to fight to resolve their BFing problems, assuming that BFing is the "premium" option, so formula is the "regular" option, so when they run into problems they just stop. Problems are likely to be those suffered by their mums or Grandmas, as they are there trying to help and offering the best advice they can despite it being wrong. 4 hourly feeds, resting sore nipples, night time top ups and so on can all be the social norm, all cause lowered milk supply and all be so frequent in the mum's experience of friends and relatives that it's assumed to be true.

Butternur - do you have Addison's as well? (I remember seeing your NN when I searched for Addison's discussions). My DH has it - had had for 30 years. Obviously completely irrelevant to BF discussion sorry, but just wanted to say hi.

dozza I'm so sorry :( Have you had help from a lactational consultant? sorry if I'm going over old ground but I've not seen your posts here. If you're not making enough you could, if you want, still bf as much as you can then top up.

Hi organiccarrotcake

Thanks for your message. Only just joined mumsnet today so have not posted on this subject. I do have a lactation consultant who has helped me get to 120ml per day (before that I was only producing 5-10ml!) It is upsetting me so much now though that I feel that it's time for me to make a decision one way or another so that I can start enjoying my son and feeding him.

I think there are very few women who medically don't have the potential to make enough milk.

However I think that women are often not told the truth of what to expect in the first few weeks of breastfeeding. I think this may even be done deliberately so as not to put women off of trying but I think it can backfire and be counter productive.

If you don't prepare new mothers for the realities of breastfeeding in the early days including explaining about the hours long cluster feeds and feeds of 1 hour plus then its no wonder that they think they have a supply issue.

:(

Welcome to MN though :)

There is a support for FF thread here that you may wish to join.

But don't rush into it. You may find that in the long run mixed feeding works and makes you feel happier that you're getting SOME bm into him. What's causing the low supply?

p.s. OP your sense of anger is not acceptable. No-one has to explain or justify to you or anyone else how they feed their baby.

I breastfed my first two children relatively easily then had major milk supply issues with my third. I suspected dairy intolerence issues so practically drove myself to the loony bin trying to maintain my milk supply and my supply issues did not let up in the entire time I was feeding him. And then, despite excluding dairy, sugar, wheat, nuts and seeds from my diet, my baby's ezcema improved dramatically when I stopped feeding him!!

Please don't judge - you have no idea what some people go through in trying to feed their babies! Maybe some of the medical reasons you cite are in theory "surmountable" but repeated thrush, lactose intolerence, 24/7 caryying an unhappy baby around was my own private hell that I will probably never recover from and if formula could have helped, I would have given up sooner than I did.

Second the posters who said there is so much bad advice out there. I remember a friend who had really wanted to BF but gave up reluctantly at 4 months citing low supply. She, of course, had been following the writings of a certain popular childcare author to the letter and simply hadn't made the connection between restricting feeds and supply. With her next child she widened her choice of reading material and went on to BF for well over a year!

I think there should be a certification scheme for books offering BF advice as some of it is truly toxic. And first time round, how the hell are you supposed to know that?

I don't understand the anger, or judging individuals, but I can understand being puzzled. The numbers don't seem to add up and this is interesting.

I think that some women don't feel able to say "I just didn't want to" in regard to breastfeeding. This is unfortunate as they're perfectly entitled to decide to formula feed and shouldn't feel under pressure to have a fall-back story about inadequate milk supply. Their body, their decision. FF is an acceptable (not equivalent) alternative to breastmilk which may be the best thing for baby if BFing would be stressful or painful for mum. We all make some trade-offs in our parenting decisions.

I also find myself thinking that some women have been very badly informed by their doctors / midwives when they tell me about the background to their decision to formula feed.

Unless they mention that they wish they'd BF'd or announce an intention to BF with future children I wouldn't do anything except smile and nod in these kind of conversations. While the numbers don't add up overall, it would be foolish to comment on individual cases without knowledge of their medical history.

In answer to your op, yes, me (among others). Genuinely piss all in the way of milk. I made it through to 8 weeks, and looking at photos of DS back then - scrawny, starved, beginning to get unresponsive - I should have switched to FF earlier for his sake. On discussing my symptoms with my doctor at length, she thought it was possibly pituitary hormone levels that were the culprit (I have had various hormonal problems in the past). I find the idea that you feel "angry" most insulting. You come across as exactly the sort of woman who made me avoid places where I was likely to meet lots of BF women (obviously close friends were fine, as they knew what I'd been through and wouldn't judge) as I was pretty sure that there were a few nasty people like you around the place, and I already felt sufficiently traumatised by my inability to feed my child without judgemental people making me feel worse.

And next time you feel like starting a really stupid thread like this, please engage your brain/ whatever limited capacity for human compassion you have before posting. Had I read this when I was still struggling to BF, I might have struggled on for longer, putting DS's health at risk, and had I read it just after giving up, it might have pitched me over the edge into full-blown PND. And there will be women in my position reading this (to those of you who are - there is so much more to being a mother than whether you can BF, and you can have a lovely, close, nurturing relationship while FF-ing). In the unlikely event that you come back to this thread, an apology would be nice.

I would assume that some mothers don't have enought milk.

Despite a c-section I had gallons of the stuff and was expressing and freezing it from day 3. I was very lucky and probably had someone elses fair share. In fact I had loads after my em-cs too.

I'm sure the mothers stress levels, general health and birth experience all make a difference. Everyone is different.