Do that many women really not have enough milk????

[Jammers]

I heard another mother today say she stopped breastfeeding because she "didn't have enough milk" and found myself getting really annoyed (in my head - I think I managed to smile sympathetically to the woman).

As I see it, people stop bf for reasons which fall braodly into one of two camps: medical or personal. (And I am simplifying slightly to make the point)

The medical reasons might include: mastitis, absess, repeated thrush, lactose intolerance in baby, very sore nipples, gestational diabetes etc. (I know all of these are surmountable but can make it more difficult to carry on)

The personal reasons might include: not enjoying it, finding it too tying, thinking your breasts should remain sexual, not being able to cope with the night feeds etc. None of these reasons would ever have stopped me from bf, however, at least they are honest and in certain circles it is brave to admit to them.

I feel that "I ran out of milk" is probably a cover for one of the personal reasons but masquerading as a medical reason, therefore inviting sympathy. I just think that if you can't be arsed to spend the time required to bf in the early weeks you should be brave enough to say so.

Am I wrong? Are there really that many women who don't have enough milk? (I now know 5 people claiming this) I'd like to know that my sense of anger is justified or be convinced that these women really have run out of milk.

My DS ended up in hospital with jaundice and dehydration on day 4. I was feeding every half hour or so up all night!! So was trying my best.
My DS wasnt having wet nappies and lost alot of weight.
He needed to stay on a lamp bed for jaundice i tried expressing but got a drop out literally!! So had to supplement formula
I carried on and did get half an oz once i carried on for days and tried to resume bf.

I stopped though as i didnt get the support of the professionals and was so worried my DS would die it was prob a silly irrational thought but i could see him ill and i just wanted him well!!

But for me i didnt have enough milk but i wished i had carried on expressing as i now know prehaps i could have built supply up after a few weeks or given him a few drops!!!

Everyone has there own reasons for stopping and i still find it hard to deal with.
I just wanted my 4 week early DS Well!!
Please dont judge any body who stops its their own baby and they will do whats best for them!
Happy mum=Happy baby

x

I did it to prove a point that I was producing very little. My baby was 10lb at birth. 30ml in an hour is not enough to feed a baby of that weight.

Just read OP;

I think many women have problems establishing their supply - through lack of support from the health professionals. Result - baby loses weight, doesn't start putting on weight, MW/HV says 'if they don't put on a pound by next week you'll need to supplement with formula', baby doesn't put on weight, mother is forced into formula supplements, supply is NEVER established, therefore she is told and believes that she 'doesn't have enough milk'. Often feeling like a failure, and gutted that she 'couldn't do it'.

I don't think it's a 'cover' for just not wanting to.

Wow - I haven't diappeared but have been busy. Post in haste, repent at leisure eh?!No time to respond in detail now but thanks for the many informative posts.

What I do have time to do now is apologise unreservedly to those with genuine medical problems who I should have metioned in my OP. One of the 5 women I know had a terrible time and tried all sorts and I was fully supportive of her choosing formula long before she did as bf was not working.

The woman I met yesterday, not a friend, clearly couldn't be arsed with many aspects of motherhood and I was left wondering why she had bothered in the first place but this clearly isn't the case for all women in her position.

There are a couple of other points I'd love to get people's opinions on but will have to be later. In the meantime, thanks again for the varied comments and apologies to all those I have clearly offended. Whilst I would always have posted this as I am genuinely very interested in the topic, I could perhaps have thought more about my tone...

Santos (sorry got your name wrong last time!) what you can express absolutely does not give an indication of your milk supply and I'm sorry that you were told that .

jammers I think it would be unreasonable for me, or anyone else, to suggest that no one of us is ever in the position where we have judged another mother. I certainly have - it's a human nature thing and I would be lying if I said I'd not. What I have discovered, though, since becoming a mother 6 years ago, is that there is no best or right path, no right or wrong way, and very, very few ACTUAL "bad" mothers. I can't be arsed by many aspects of motherhood (DS1 is just about to put the telly on as I want to write this rather than play with him ). But I think I'm a very attentive, loving mother generally.

But what I now realise is that being a mum is SO hard that you just have to find your own path, whatever that is, and children are very flexible and cope with a lot. As long as there's no out and out abuse, it will be fine. Scales of fine, sure, but it will be fine.

Motherhood isn't always a choice but it's always forever. Give people a break :)

Interestingly a lady i know from school was told she'd have to start formula feeding as the baby wasn't gaining weight by her HV. Her husband is a consultant at the local children's hospital, told her to ignore HV and keep on breast feeding so she did. The baby is gorgeous and still thriving on breast milk at 12 months so maybe we should all have more confidence in our own bodies.
It's hard though when just about everyone from professionals to your own parents demand to know how you know the baby is getting enough milk.

Go on then, what other aspects of motherhood couldn't she be arsed with, to make you wonder why she ever bothered in the first place.

thisismysong

Everything you've said could be something - or nothing. Meaning on the face of it it sounds "normal" with things which need fixing, but weren't.

A lip blister can be caused by a poor latch. They said your latch was ok - but it may have been when they looked or by that point you may have got the knack and the blister came from before. Crying inconsolably isn't how it should be but then you say that he's go back on and suck and suck until he fell asleep which isn't inconsolable. That's normal - ie crying until they CAN suck and suck to sleep. It may also be that he had a headache from forceps or the ventouse, if you had one, or was upset by the lights and sounds of the new world he was in and the only thing that he felt comfortable doing was sucking. That's all normal (although giving him something for a headache would be nice - if that was the problem).

"By day 2/3 he was crying inconsolably (starving) after every feed. Then he just sucked and sucked until he fell asleep."

Losing 10% of bodyweight in 2-3 days sounds so odd that I would suspect another problem. For instance, if you had an IV in labour (did you have antibiotics? were you induced? did you have any drugs at all?) this can increase your baby's bodyweight artificially which then shows a erroneous crash in weight. Or, different scales may have been used or even misread! My second son lost, apparently, a huge amount of weight (well over 10%) in his first 10 days but my MW just said that nothing was wrong and that she would weigh him in a few days - and I agreed - and guess what - it turned out to be an erroneous reading. My MW was excellent and we had a good and trusting relationship but that could have been a disaster.

"MY FAULT AS I WASN'T PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION."

Outrageous thing of them to say :(

" Then me getting thrush, the boys getting thrush,"

horrible, horrible.

:(

No, milk not coming in at 2-3 days is ok, as is mec still passing then. BUT it may have been something - impossible to tell from this.

Definately read that book - it will really help. Must go but I think with the right help you'll be fine this time. :)

Caz10 - I have had to measure breastmilk I am expressing to see if the Domperidone tablets I have been taking were actually having any effect.

My milk did not come in at all for five days. We had to give my son a bottle just to be allowed home from hospital (he was struggling to latch on and feed for ten minutes or whatever other seemingly random rule was dictating that we could not leave - how could they ave controlled this if I had given birth at home?) We were also told by a v rude midwife that giving him a bottle so early meant that I would not be able to breastfeed anyway as the sucking mechanism he would have now learned was so different to that of latching on to the breast. I carried on bottle feeding for the time being and a few days later milk appeared in copious amounts and hey presto, he started feeding and continued to do so until he was weaned. Women should do whatever is best for themselves and their baby at the time it is nobody else's place to judge.

I agree with the posts about not giving women the correct expectations about BF before they give birth. All the antenatal classes I attended were full of information regarding the benefits and loveliness of BFing and little or nothing about how difficult it can be. We even practised with dolls - which gave me the idea that you simply whacked on the baby and off you went. I was very surprised that
a)it took so long (I genuinely thought 20 mins per feed tops)
b)that latching on correctly can be so difficult
c)that babies can be hungry again so quickly after finishing.
If I had been told all of this it would not have put me off BFing but at least I would have been a little more realistic in my expectations.
Fortunately in Colchester hospital there are the 'pink ladies' BFing support who are wonderful. They spend ages going through things with you in hospital, phone or text when you are home, are more than happy for you to ring with questions (is this normal ...?) and do home visits and run support groups. Because of these ladies I am still BFing and am so thankful.
Having said that my best friend chose to FF from day 1 and this is no issue. It is totally each woman's choice as to how to feed their baby. I just think that HCP should be more honest with women ante-natal so that if they do choose to BF it's not such a shock!

organiccarrotcake - thanks for responding. Things were slightly more complicated but I didn't want my post to go on forever!

I think I was sensitive to the signs of my milk not coming in as I have PCOS (mentioned by others earlier) and the b/f book I had said this may be an issue. I was taking fenugreek which the midwives hadn't even heard of. I was also b/f twins although the smaller was on formula from the start due to a low birth weight and even though he latched OK, would not stay on so it was the bigger (exclusively b/f) twin who was doing most of the feeding.

He definitely was dehydrated as they took bloods and his sodium levels were too high. The crying thing built up over the days and was directly related to feeding, i.e. he was fine at other times but when taken off the breast was when he would cry. In hindsight (lovely thing) I was doing the correct thing in letting him feed as long as he wanted but I felt that he was feeding until he fell asleep from exhaustion rather than was actually satiated/consoled.

I started asking questions by day 2/3, the weight loss (11-12%) was detected on day 5.

I wasn't actually worried about the sucking blister, I just asked if he was dehydrated as he had dry lips - and was told it was a sucking blister and he was 'perfectly hydrated' as she could see this from a physical examination. This was on day 4.

I didn't have enough support in place and blame myself for that. I actually wish I had read a thread like this which said how hard it can be and how much you need professional support in place so its there if things do go wrong. I didn't ring the NCT as I thought that the midwives physically seeing him was more

I attended multiple specific antenatal classes at the hospital and was told that the midwives were trained in breastfeeding and lactation consultants were available if necessary. In reality the midwives weren't much help and would not ring the lactation consultant as they said that she wouldn't come and see me. I eventually got hold of her number myself but only ever got an answerphone with the message that she was on holiday and would be back in September (it was late October by this stage).

I think I can now identify things I should have done differently like keeping trying them on the breast rather than going to exclusively expressing and I think that if the weight loss had been picked up earlier, it wouldn't have been such a mad panic and I might have been able to sort out a way to keep b/f going forward.

Anyway very off topic now! this is supposed to be a thread about women like me who can't be arsed to breastfeed.

sorry should have read 'I didn't ring the NCT as I thought that the midwives physically seeing him was more important'. I wish I had got a second opinion though!

I worry more that our attude to breastfeeding and tendency to look down on bottle feeding, leads to unnecessary dehydration and hospitalisation of babies.

I am angry with stories like to ones I hear on the thread are totally avoidable.

Are the benefits of breastfeeding really worth the dehydration, and hospitalistion of babies?

When these babies are seriously ill, is the mothers satisfaction that they continued to breast feed, really in a childs best interest?

Is it right that a midwife must sit and watch baby be ill and mother in despair purely because for whatever reason BF is not working?

Is it right that they cannot say to mother don't worry it is ok to give baby formula?

(dehydration and hospitalisation made more likely in exclusively breastfed babies and not something any breast feeding course or lactation consultatant will tell you. if in doubt google it)

Lunar Rose: It's a step too far to attribute these cases of dehydration and hospitalisation to breastfeeding. Lack of support for and knowledge about breastfeeding, and what does and doesn't constitute normal infant feeding behaviour, seem to be equally present factors in the cases presented here.

It would be as wrong as attributing every cough and cold in a FF infant to the fact that their mother didn't breastfeed. There may be a link but it's more complex than simple causation.

is the mothers satisfaction that they continued to breast feed, really in a childs best interest?

Yes I am sure that's it, the mothers needs placed above the childs
Honestly just when burning women at the stake or the ducking stool goes out of fashion now we've moved onto tearing strips off each other on the internet.

Haven't read the thread but your OP made me a bit cross tbh.

Whilst I also believe that many, probably the majority of women who stop breastfeeding because they don't have enough actually do, I think that it is much more complex than that and unfair to judge.

Of the women that say they don't have enough milk that do, a very large percentage believe it with all their heart due to having been misinformed or as a result of their attempt to conform to perceived cultural expecations.

Some who use it as an 'excuse' also have made a decision, weighing up the pros and cons to them and their family based on the knowledge they have OF the pros and cons, which for the majority of them, is not very accurate.

I think it is very wrong to be judgemental about women who say they have poor milk supply, but I absolutely share your frustration when I hear it time after time, and wonder continuously how far I should go to nod and accept what they say or challenge in order to not allow myself to become part of the culture that works against bfing rates.

It's a hard one to get right for sure.

Togarama: hospitalisation through dehydration is more likely in exclusively breastfeed babies (entirely supportable by research google it). Avoidable in cases due to feeding failure yes, maybe by catching it early enough and ALOT of hard work on the part of the mother but definately by (shh dare I say it) bottle feeding

mamatomany: Sorry. I get cross when I hear stories about the hospiatlisation and dehydration of babies and I said it wrong.

to reword it: I think there does come a time when if baby is ill we should be telling mums that it's ok to make the choice. Yes I do believe when it gets to dehydration that anyone who tells you that the quickest and easiest way to get sustenance down a babies throat is not in a babies best interest is wrong.

I think it really doesn't matter, breast feeding or bottle feeding as long as Baby and mother are healthy. Why look down on someone if for whatever reason they stop.

LunarRose - I'd like to see the sats on admissions for dehydration because the midwives do not sit and watch a baby become ill, they would get in serious trouble for doing so, but what they do is jump in far too quickly and insist a baby has 4oz's before they leave the hospital or a 40 min feed. When you consider most mums are kicked out of hospital within 24 hours it's the baby equivalent of foie gras to shove 4oz's down them when if left to nature they wouldn't eat at all until at least day 3. The after care is generally poor too.
In Australia a midwife will spend 3 hours a day with the new mum helping with feeding if required. Here they don't even take their coats off.

to be fair perhaps I am more militant about it because 5 years ago I watched my DD starve in front of midwives telling me I was doing fine and keep on going, as a first time mum I knew no better.

She dropped from nearly 8lb at birth to nearly 4lb.

I only avoided hospitalisation cos I switched to bottle and cup fed her constantly for 24 hours straight.

Lunar Rose: I'm familiar with this research. The actual research papers tend to refer to "problems with breastfeeding" as being related to dehydration and hospitalisation. In at least one case the author of a recent study made a public statement that he thought the answer to this problem was better support for BFing rather than FFing.

You are welcome to draw your own conclusions from the research but they are not the same ones drawn by those who carried out the original studies.

I'm not going to list the negative side-effects which are more likely to be found in FF babies. We're all familiar with them and it doesn't mean anything for individual women for whom the decision to FF may be the right one regardless of trends across a population.

PS Lunar: I'm not having a go at you, just pursuing a point. I don't agree with the OP's anger and strongly support mothers' rights to FF or BF as most appropriate to them. I know how hard it is when you're posting on issues which are very personal.