Do that many women really not have enough milk????

[Jammers]

I heard another mother today say she stopped breastfeeding because she "didn't have enough milk" and found myself getting really annoyed (in my head - I think I managed to smile sympathetically to the woman).

As I see it, people stop bf for reasons which fall braodly into one of two camps: medical or personal. (And I am simplifying slightly to make the point)

The medical reasons might include: mastitis, absess, repeated thrush, lactose intolerance in baby, very sore nipples, gestational diabetes etc. (I know all of these are surmountable but can make it more difficult to carry on)

The personal reasons might include: not enjoying it, finding it too tying, thinking your breasts should remain sexual, not being able to cope with the night feeds etc. None of these reasons would ever have stopped me from bf, however, at least they are honest and in certain circles it is brave to admit to them.

I feel that "I ran out of milk" is probably a cover for one of the personal reasons but masquerading as a medical reason, therefore inviting sympathy. I just think that if you can't be arsed to spend the time required to bf in the early weeks you should be brave enough to say so.

Am I wrong? Are there really that many women who don't have enough milk? (I now know 5 people claiming this) I'd like to know that my sense of anger is justified or be convinced that these women really have run out of milk.

I know a lot of women, some in real life, some online, who had genuine supply issues. Because of my online community, most of those women have infertility issues, so I will always wonder if they are connected, since the stats for PCOS for example (which I don't suffer from) are that 1/3 of women with PCOS have supply issues, 1/3 have over supply, and 1/3 'normal' supply.

I have a genuine case of IGT, as diagnosed by several IBCLC qualified lactation consultants. Luckily I don't have a complete case, so although one breast produces very little, the other produces a just-about-manageable amount, if encouraged with round the clock feeding/pumping/domperidone at max dose. I breastfed my first for 7 months, most of which was mixed feeding, and my second for 10 months, and had a major triumph in that months 2-5 were solely breastfeeding, although some of that came from an SNS.

I really doubt this 1-5% figure that gets bandied about. It's just not true in my experience, although of course anecdotal data is always dodgy. Would love to see the original reference for it, I've never seen the source.

I have had a problem with low milk supply from the start and believe me, I have tried everything in the book that was reasonably possible for me as a single mum with little support.

Two reasons: for one, I fed 'on demand', which I thought was what you were supposed to do. Except my baby slept for 4-5 hours at a time from the word go and it was only when I called an NCT BF consultant at 3 weeks that I discovered I should have been feeding more often.

Secondly, my milk never came in - just built up very slowly from about 1 week in but never reached adequate levels, perhaps because I had to supplement on the doctor's advice. (I've since tried repeatedly to build supply/relactate.) In the hospital they suggested that it was because I lost a lot of blood and was anaemic after the birth.

For what it's worth, my mother was just recounting how when my grandparents were doctors in Africa in the 1960s and 70s they came across plenty of women who didn't have enough milk and relied on donations from those who had more.

So I don't think it's just a problem of spoilt, lazy mums who have other options at their disposal.

And I also no longer believe that 'anyone' can breastfeed, as I've so often read and heard.

Low milk supply may be a minority problem but it is genuine.

This OP has made me really angry. I can't stand smug people like you who have been able to bf look down on those who were unable to. Low supply is a genuine issue for many but unfortunatley goes undiagnosed and uninvestigated as they would rather feed their child formula and move on than watch them scream with hunger.

I am sometimes shocked at the lengths some women will go to in order to bf, to the point of babies having to be hospitalised for dehydration and it is obviously not working. I wonder whether it is peer pressure and pride that is the driving force rather than wanting to do the best for the child. Before I am flamed, let me add that I am well aware of the superiority of bf and very pro bf but I also believe that not everyone can do it.

I had none at all...do you want proof or something?

second what party hats said

only my daughter had got past the stage of being able to scream with hunger

yup thalia agree, I have PCOS, it's never really been that much of an issue apart from annoyances like facial hair, but having read about the link on MN a year or so ago, I do think it's possible my supply was low as a result. As you say though, quite possibly not! I also agree with togorama on the need to recognise where the odds are stacked more against some women than others.

However, I read a 1% figure I think of absolutely unable to bf in Spiritual Midwifery, which was based on many years of reliable data. It's clear that the women giving birth on the Farm get/got maximum support for bf, including wetnursing to help them through difficulties (those who need such support not being included in the 1% IIRC).

And why on earth would you assume that people would lie about it?

Even if there are many reasons for the lack of milk, some of which may be inadvertently created by the mother, presumably people say they haven't got enough milk because they genuinely perceive that to be the case!

I would have loved to be able to exclusively breastfeed and still feel disappointed that I can't. But glad my daughter is healthy and putting on weight with mixed feeding.

How dare you suggest that women would lie about this??!!!
I wept so much when I was unable to feed my dd. I was made to feel like a failure by my HV and people posting this shit is offensive.

I made my HV sit with me for ONE HOUR while I expressed and I got 30ml. Thats all. Then she fucking believed me.

I understand the angry responses to the OP, who has mysteriously disappeared which is a shame.

However, I am not sure it's totally helpful as we end up with a list of mums saying YES! It's very common! Which 1st time pregnant mums reading this may take to mean that it is common, as opposed to what's actually being said which is that it's horrific to make judgements about the way people feed their babies, and some people's experiences are very traumatic.

Clearly, there are women who don't make enough milk for a whole load of reasons. However, for many of them who genuinely are not producing enough, as opposed to feeling that they're not because of normal, but distressing and unexpected baby behaviour, there are ways and means to improve supply if - and only if - the cause of the problem is actually diagnosed in time.

To fill this thread with indignant cries of "I couldn't and my baby really suffered" simply makes it seem like it IS a really common problem. Whereas it's very, very rare for some to actually not be able to WITH THE RIGHT TREATMENT GIVEN IN TIME.

Many women will go to hell and back trying to breastfeed (we've seen lots of these stories here tonight) and what makes ME angry is that these women and babies are missing out on the medical treatments that they need because there are so few specialist lactaction practitioners around. And I don't mean peer supporters - I mean highly qualified and experienced medical people who understand the wide range of problems which can occur - from physical problems in the baby (eg cleft palette, tongue tie, cranial problems), physical problems in mum (eg milk producing tissue damage/underdevelopment), hormonal problems in mum, the list is HUGE.

It is very, very common for mums to mums to honestly think they've not got enough milk, when actually it's just normal behaviour. It's less common for mums to not have enough milk because of a problem which can be treated (if given the right help). The right help is rarely there. It's very rare - but possible - for mum to just not have enough milk, full stop. But women in the latter two categories often try SO hard to BF and end up so distressed that threads like this must be like salting an open wound :(

What makes me angry is those women who, with the right help and medical treatment, could breastfeed if they wanted to (and look how hard people who've posted here have tried :( ). But sufficient help isn't there.

What makes me sad is those women who THINK they've not got enough milk, but actually they do. Which is why I suggested that the OP train as a peer supporter so she's in a better place to explain things to mums.

I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt, that actually she's not coming across as she means, as to be as judgemental as she says she is would be quite horrible and grossly unfair. I'm sure that's not the case but it would be nice if she came back to clarify.

And a really good book to read about low or absent milk supply is "The Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making more Milk" (Diana West and Lisa Marasco). It explains normal infant behaviour, which is reassuring, and then explains about problems which CAN be fixed (and how), and problems which CAN'T and babies need to be supplemented or fully FF.

This is just ignorance. There are many reasons why a women's milk supply diminishes. Mine did, much to my distress and horror. There were a number of contributory factors.

To the OP, instead of getting angry, why don't you educate yourself on these matters?

perhaps the number of women posting on this thread suggests that the problem is MORE common than BF advocates want us to believe.

YOu can attend all the BF courses in the world and sometimes it still doen't work

Hear hear LunarRose

There are medical reasons that can cause a low milk supply like endromesis, PCOS and retained placenta. Some women have piturity gland issues which affect breastfeeding as well.

There are issues like many women have never seen a baby breastfeed before they attempt it. They come from families where breastfeeding is done in private if at all. They do not know how to get the baby to latch on and if they do get the baby to latch on, they are in pain and the nipple is not properly simulated.

Breastfeeding is difficult without suitable support. It is a learned art.

Why are you angry? Why does it matter to you?
You remind me of when I had severe postnatal depression with my son. I was completely obcessed with breastfeeding and very militant.

In the last year or so I know of four people including myself who have had babies get dehydrated due to milk not coming in. Two of us in hospital; with me saying at every shift 'I don't think my milk has come in'. Despite loads of signs - but I didn't know what else to do about my concerns although eventually started topping up with formula in secret as the midwives made me feel it was so wrong, although obviously it was too little too late.

By day 2/3 he was crying inconsolably (starving) after every feed. Then he just sucked and sucked until he fell asleep. The midwives just brushed my concerns aside - they watched him latch (fine), squeezed my nipples to make sure milk was coming out, physically inspected him, asked questions and then discounted the answers (eg. still pooing meconium at 3 days). I hadn't even heard of dehydration due to milk not coming in, but as he had a sucking blister on his lip I asked if he was dehydrated and was told he was perfectly hydrated.

Then before discharge they decided to weigh him; cue rushing about, paed checks, blood tests, feeding schedules, my baby sleeping for 24 hours straight and possible light therapy for jaundice and being told it was MY FAULT AS I WASN'T PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION.

Then hiring an impractical expensive unnecessarily large expressing machine from the NCT - very helpful thanks. Then me getting thrush, the boys getting thrush, and once these were finally cleared trying them on the breast for an hour and a half at a time and being able to tell that they still hadn't got a full feed.

So yes I decided that I wasn't able to carry on breastfeeding and the basic problem was that at the start I didn't produce enough milk. Maybe it was surmountable and I'm probably one of those women who you would bare your teeth at but possibly you should think about what people might have gone through before you sit there and judge them for their personal, surmountable and dishonest reasons. I'm sure its never as simple as 'I couldn't be bothered' otherwise they wouldn't have bloody tried in the first place.

Grrr...

slightly off topic but dozza and santaslittlehelper why on earth do people have you measuring out your breast milk?? The amount you can express is NOT indicative of whether you can produce enough to feed your baby.

Sounds like you had really poor care ThisIsYourSong - but isn't it quite normal for milk not to be in by day 2/3, and for babies to have sucking blisters?

organiccarrotcake - thanks for the book recommendation. I am pg again and would love to get b/f right this time! Have put it on my list to get with the next order!

I don't get if its normal for your milk not to come in by then, why he had lost more than 10% of his body weight by day 4? This isn't normal??

I just didn't know what a sucking blister was - and thought it was a sign of dry lips due to dehydration (like an adult would get?).

Sorry getting a bit off topic - like I said, I am 28 weeks now and am planning to post another thread to get some advice before the new baby - oh and have a lactation consultant in place!

I had a similar-ish experience to you, except with less weight loss (only about 7% by day 3 I think, so not a worry). My milk didn't come in til late day 4 and my ds was jaundiced - lots of horrible blood tests and then some time in a light box. His lips and mouth were also quite dry and we had to try to wake him for feeds - though he had a sucking blister for the first few weeks and I thought most babies did.

Just didn't want anyone to read you post and assume a sucking blister or milk taking more than a couple of days to come in was an indication of a supply problem iyswim.

OP: fuck off and take your nasty judgemental ignorance with you.

The prevailing orthodoxy is 'supply and demand': if you feed enough, you will make enough. This is pushed strongly to counteract the natural loss of confidence people might experience on the way.

However, this is not always true. Lower down the thread a figure of 'only' 2% was quoted. So if you go to a largish bf support meeting, you are likely to have someone there within that 2% (in fact, probably more likely, as people having problems would be more likely to seek help). How horrible for them to have to run the gauntlet of the OPs disbelief and condescension at the time at which they would be the most thwarted and distressed.

No worries! I guess I had even less milk than most then - I know that you don't produce much in the first few days and that colostrum is low in volume but high in nutrients.

Sorry for your jaundice problems. Luckily ours sorted out without light therapy, but I have heard it is hard for the baby. The blood tests were bad enough!

Severely anaemic after birth
Lost a lot of blood
Was very weak, slipping in and out of conciousness for 24hours, I have PCOS

My milk never came in properly, I did bf in the hosptial, but mainly colostrum

Mix fed at home and expressed as much as I could to increase supply, but it just didn't happen

If you had said your OP to my face I would have told you to fuck right off

I was devastated that I couldn't bf 'properly' and continued expressing a maximum of 20ml per day (!!!!) to feed to dd for 5 weeks, when I finally, sadly gave up.

Dd is happy, healthy and seems to have an excellent immune system

Should point out the 20ml perday was used as an addition to formula - she would have been very skinny otherwise obviously!

sadness is what I feel (if warranted, if person switched to formula without regrets then great for them), but never anger (unless aimed at the HCPs)