Do that many women really not have enough milk????

[Jammers]

I heard another mother today say she stopped breastfeeding because she "didn't have enough milk" and found myself getting really annoyed (in my head - I think I managed to smile sympathetically to the woman).

As I see it, people stop bf for reasons which fall braodly into one of two camps: medical or personal. (And I am simplifying slightly to make the point)

The medical reasons might include: mastitis, absess, repeated thrush, lactose intolerance in baby, very sore nipples, gestational diabetes etc. (I know all of these are surmountable but can make it more difficult to carry on)

The personal reasons might include: not enjoying it, finding it too tying, thinking your breasts should remain sexual, not being able to cope with the night feeds etc. None of these reasons would ever have stopped me from bf, however, at least they are honest and in certain circles it is brave to admit to them.

I feel that "I ran out of milk" is probably a cover for one of the personal reasons but masquerading as a medical reason, therefore inviting sympathy. I just think that if you can't be arsed to spend the time required to bf in the early weeks you should be brave enough to say so.

Am I wrong? Are there really that many women who don't have enough milk? (I now know 5 people claiming this) I'd like to know that my sense of anger is justified or be convinced that these women really have run out of milk.

I did taste it when expressing does that count?

I could suck loads out too with my own mouth, but couldn't express more than 1oz into a bottle.

oh dear I think we've gone off topic somewhat....

I'm going to be accused of killing the thread!

Leoniedelt thank you for saying that not being able to express does not = hAving no milk! I thought that was common knowledge then started to doubt myself when no-one else agreed!

My Dd was bf exclusively to 8mths when I went back to work, then got formula when I was away from her, still feeding regularly until about last month when I suspect my milk changed because I am Pg. She is 3! And it was a world record the day I expressed 1.5oz, almost broke my boobs trying!

I can't imagine how soul destroying it would be to be squeezing it out and measuring...

The best indicator is a thriving baby, which I had eventually. My supply was low to start with, combo of falling into the trap of thinking I should only be feeding every 3hrs, and bad latch, both fixable

Great. So which one was I then? I breastfed ds1 in hospital, and when he developed jaundice which got worse, not better under phototherapy, I was told to supplement him with formula because he needed extra fluids and calories to recover. I don't know if this was true or not, but I had a bright yellow baby in an incubator, so I did what the healthcare professionals told me.

When I got home, I tried really hard to re-establish breastfeeding, using a pump hired from the NCT to pump several times a day as well as feeding ds1 - he didn't put on weight, and the amount of milk I expressed was the same on day 1 as it was a week later - 4.5ml! I put him onto formula, as it seemed I didn't have either enough milk or good quality milk.

With ds2 I tried again - he lost 10oz from his birthweight, and hadn't regained more than an ounce or two 6 weeks later, despite being on the breast almost all the time. I had the HV coming round every day or every other day, telling me that she wanted him to have put on a certain amount of weight by her next visit - which he didn't do. She suggested formula, and I told her I really wanted to bf ds2 - and she told me she had to think of the best interests of the child!!

At 6 weeks old, I had to take ds2 to hospital as he had some breathing problems, which turned out to be a chest infection - but once I was there with him, they became far more interested in his failure to gain weight, and kept us in. I heard him described on the ward round as 'Failure To Thrive', which made my blood run cold. He didn't gain any weight until I started supplementing with formula, and that spelled the end of bf.

With ds3, I mixed fed almost from the start - me during the day, and bottles at night. I tried cutting the number of bottles he was having, but as soon as he was having fewer than two bottles a day, he'd stop gaining weight. I managed to mixed feed for 12 weeks, which was the longest I had managed any sort of breastfeeding.

I felt dreadful - a total failure - I couldn't even nourish my own babies. Other women were making gold top, I was making skim. It contributed to my developing PND three times - such fun for all the family - and haunts me to this day, as a factor in my. ongoing depression.

Threads like this should make me angry, but they just make me feel dreadful. I am clearing kidding myself when I believe that I didn't have enough milk or sufficiently good quality milk to nourish my babies. I make the OP angry by believing this - she thinks I am lying to cover up giving up breastfeeding for some other reason.

Open your eyes, OP, and see what hurt you can cause with such black and white views.

StayingFatherChristmasGirl - your HV sounds awful! You certainly didn't fail, and I'm angry on your behalf that the health professionals looking after you didn't bother to investigate why your baby didn't gain weight or why feeding wasn't going well.

I threw her out of the house after that comment, MoonUnitAlpha - not bodily, but I told her to leave and she did. She was really apologetic the next time she saw me.

I should be angry with the HCPs I saw - and actually that's something I will work on, as I think it would be a good thing, and would help me move past the whole thing.

I am sorry, though, for blurting all this out - but I want the OP to see how statements such as hers can really hurt, and that there may be far more to a situation than she can see.

I wouldn't say all of the above in casual conversation - I'd probably say I didn't have enough milk - and incur the judgement of Jammers.

I was spending half an hour at least, 4 times a day using the breast pump, but ds didn't put on weight or seem any less hungry. That, added to the amount I expressed, looked pretty bleak to me at the time.

Have an under-active thyroid and my milk, including colostrum, didn't come in with dc1 until day 10 postpartum, after doing a lot of expressing with a pump. Despite under-active thyroid being in medical notes, and requiring consultant care, no one ever mentioned the link between autoimmune and lack of milk supply. Combine it with a traumatic delivery and post-birth complications, mild tongue-tie, lack of bf support, flat nipples and jaundiced/colicky baby that put the kibosh on bf. I'm not sure I had the confidence to get to the point of hospitalisation for dcs in the pursuit of bf & the bf counsellor's assessment was dc was being a "tinker"

I have instead expressed for 3-4 months x 5-6 times a day for all my dcs, that being the best I could do. I did feel guilt, I don't now.

StayingFatherChristmasGirl - I don't think the OP does see though, judging by her later posts. In fact she sees this as a useful thread for those who 'think' they have supply issues (but obviously don't).

I know what you mean about not telling people the full story - I cried writing it down last night and that's 14 months after it all happened (although I am pregnant and hormonal!).

Breastfeeding is an emotive issue. I don't have a problem with the fact my babies had formula, they have thrived on it. Its just I felt I let them down by not being able to get it right.

Starlight - thanks for your post. I know I am looking at it all with hindsight. But I do feel angry at myself, stupid, guilty etc. I do know theoretically I shouldn't feel those things, but at the end of the day they're just feelings that are there to get past. And I am also cross with the bloody NHS for not giving enough proper support! I think all these feelings are coming to the fore again because of I've been thinking about b/f the new baby and how much I want to get it right this time.

And to the OP, I know plenty of people who have said I didn't want to breastfeed / I tried it and I hated it / it didn't work for me / I couldn't wait to finish.

Jammer you still don't seem to believe that some people ACTUALLY don't have enough milk when you say that

'It also strikes me that this is now a fantastic support thread for those who BELIEVE they don't have enough milk.'

As the posts above have shown, plenty of people simply do not have enough milk at a given time - even if the reasons are not biological.

Having people tell them the problem is all in the mind or down to a lack of knowledge just makes them feel bad and is totally unhelpful.

Jammers if you could come round my house and get my baby to latch on to my tiny flat nipples and feed I would be eternally grateful - otherwise- if you can't help, stop judging people who struggle to feed.

It is different for everyone. This is my 3rd baby now and I have exactly the same problem every time and so I choose to express. I watched the lady in the next bed to me, she got her new born baby, held him to her breast and he sucked milk out of it FUCKING FANTASTIC !!

MINE DID NOT !! So its easy for her - not for me ! I just can't do it, and people like you make it even more miserable for me to come to terms with it.

I wish I could make people like jammers sit in my bedroom at 03.00 in the morning when I am crying my eyes out, and the baby is screaming her head off, I would pay folding money to see what they suggest I do about it.

miss fucking perfect tits !

As the posts above have shown, plenty of people simply do not have enough milk at a given time - even if the reasons are not biological.

Wouldn't it be great though, in these cases where it is NOT biological, that there was better info and advice out there? Bad latch, tongue tie etc etc could be fixed and those babies could be breasted?

So much wrong information floating around out there! Boob size is NOT indicative of the amount of milk you produce! I am 32a FFs!!

Whoah, been away from Mumsnet for a few days, what a thread...

I think most of the other posters have covered all the relevant points (lack of support, real supply issues, ill babies, all manner of BF problems) so I won't go into that. But can I add that I also found the OP offensive. You felt 'annoyed' and 'anger'? Well I feel the same way when people write that sort of stuff. You only need to read the stories here (and on the FF thread) to read what people have gone through and the turmoil that mums experience. BFing is probably wonderful when it goes well, but when it doesn't it's a f*cking nightmare.

But I think the real moral of the story is that you should never judge someone who isn't BFing/ stops BFing/ is FFing etc - you just don't know what traumas someone may have been through and what their reasons are. And even if they decided to FF from day 1, that's their decision too and none of your business.

Can't we all just be friends? :)

OnEdge

I think your second post is totally spot on (although the third also hits the nail on the head beautifully )

There is just no bloody point preaching on at people to breastfeed unless we are prepared to provide practical help when and where it counts. It would be very nice, for example, if the NHS could send well-trained breastfeeding people to sit with us at 3am and help get it working.

Instead, some people seems to think that endless promotion and idealisation of breastfeeding will magically get everyone doing it, as if it's a simple lifestyle choice. Grrr ...