Do that many women really not have enough milk????

[Jammers]

I heard another mother today say she stopped breastfeeding because she "didn't have enough milk" and found myself getting really annoyed (in my head - I think I managed to smile sympathetically to the woman).

As I see it, people stop bf for reasons which fall braodly into one of two camps: medical or personal. (And I am simplifying slightly to make the point)

The medical reasons might include: mastitis, absess, repeated thrush, lactose intolerance in baby, very sore nipples, gestational diabetes etc. (I know all of these are surmountable but can make it more difficult to carry on)

The personal reasons might include: not enjoying it, finding it too tying, thinking your breasts should remain sexual, not being able to cope with the night feeds etc. None of these reasons would ever have stopped me from bf, however, at least they are honest and in certain circles it is brave to admit to them.

I feel that "I ran out of milk" is probably a cover for one of the personal reasons but masquerading as a medical reason, therefore inviting sympathy. I just think that if you can't be arsed to spend the time required to bf in the early weeks you should be brave enough to say so.

Am I wrong? Are there really that many women who don't have enough milk? (I now know 5 people claiming this) I'd like to know that my sense of anger is justified or be convinced that these women really have run out of milk.

mamatomany: I was in hospital for 2 days after the birth. I had at least one midwive sit with me for an hour. for all intents and purposes it "looked" like DD was latched on fine. There are far more effective indicators.

Thisisyoursong Your post makes me cross. You don't at all, but what you have written juat makes me quite mad.

'I didn't have enough support in place and blame myself for that.'

This is where it starts. We all blame ourselves and 'they' prefer this because whilst we do, there is no onus on THEM to improve their services. Please don't think I'm blaming you though. I'm trying to point out that you really shouldn't be blaming yourself. I cannot imagine there are very many women at all that don't go into motherhood with the highest expectations of themselves, and the desire to try their absolute best for their babies, coupled with a blind trust in professionals who make promises that they are trustworthy and then fail to deliver.

'I actually wish I had read a thread like this which said how hard it can be and how much you need professional support in place so its there if things do go wrong.'

Yes, but how could you have possible known about this thread then? It isn't in the literature they hand you is it? They tell you you can get all the information you need from your MW or HV.

'I didn't ring the NCT as I thought that the midwives physically seeing him was more'

Very sensible assumption. They are afterall medically trained and supposed 'experts' in babies.

'I attended multiple specific antenatal classes at the hospital and was told that the midwives were trained in breastfeeding and lactation consultants were available if necessary.'

Exactly. This is why I got so cross at your post. Because you are being sold a service that just isn't there, and then you blame yourself for falling for it.

'In reality the midwives weren't much help and would not ring the lactation consultant as they said that she wouldn't come and see me.I eventually got hold of her number myself but only ever got an answerphone with the message that she was on holiday and would be back in September (it was late October by this stage).'

How could you have possibly known this in advance. If you had, you could have put together a plan B.

'I think I can now identify things I should have done differently like keeping trying them on the breast rather than going to exclusively expressing and I think that if the weight loss had been picked up earlier, it wouldn't have been such a mad panic and I might have been able to sort out a way to keep b/f going forward.'

Yes. You probably could have done things differently, but to have done that you would have had to have known that there are different ways of doing things, that the support you are promised is unlikely to be forthcoming and that professionals PAID to support you with BF haven't the time, the resources or very often the knowledge.

So, please DON'T blame yourself. If you want to direct any blame or anger, direct it at the appallying support system and if you have any energy motivating you to do something about it, do.

Surely most of the women who gave up after pumping unsuccessfully were only pumping in the first place because their babies were not feeding successfully.

I'm always a bit puzzled as to why it is happily acknowledged that some women can suffer from having too much milk, and yet it is claimed that having too little is extremely rare.

I worry a bit though about the possible effects of drugs used in third stage labour on milk production and wonder if this could be a factor in some women's lack of milk. Would be interesting to know whether these drugs are routinely administered in countries where breastfeeding rates are very high.

I didn't have any milk with DS1.

I had an emergency c-section under GA and had to be recussitated at one point. They think that the shock to my body stopped the milk coming in.

I had colostrum, but nothing after that. I tried to BF for almost a fortnight, but obviously it didn't work (and DS1 had to be topped up with formula after about day 8 anyway as he was losing so much weight).

I subsequently BF DS2 and DD (for 9 months and 6 months respectively), and so do know what I'm talking about.

So I didn't run out of milk... I just didn't have any!

'some women can suffer from having too much milk'

Hmm. Usually this is a temporary state. You have too much milk until your body adjusts. Whilst it does so, bfing can be a bit difficult and uncomfortable. It's the same as having too little milk. If your body doesn't adjust itself, there are simple things you can do to increas your chances of getting the 'right' amount.

I believe in too little milk, but I believe in womens bodies enough to feel that the too little milk scenario, whilst true, is a symptom of our culture, not our biology in the vast majority of cases. I do not mean by this that women have 'chosen' not to have enough milk. It is far more complicated.

'their babies were not feeding successfully'

zep I think that women's confidence in their own bodies and ability surrounding both childbirth and bfing affects their perception of 'successful' feeding and they are more likely to pump as a result of a perceived problem rather than a real one.

togarama: always open to a debate, definately not taking it personally. Do apologise if I get heated and certainly wouldn't want to uppset BF mothers (who I admit I am totally in awe of due to the amount they have gone through to do it!!) one I feel strongly about.

Yes successful breastfeeding would resolve admissions, but like we have seen that does not always happen and with the best will in the world, I would rather see mums bottle feed without any stigma attached than even one hospital admission for failed feeding.

In response to the midwife comment - I return to my dd. When faced with the position of having recognised that dd had lost lots of weight, the best treatment option she could offer was expressing and cup feeding. (dd was too starved to be able to suck). given that I could not express enough to feed a flea, this did not seem to me to be a great option. She literally could see dd starving at yet, as a professional, still could not turn round and say actually at this point the best option for your daughter is formula. I can't imagine how horrific as a caring individual that must be.

'does not always happen and with the best will in the world,'

Who's will though?

I think it is important to recognise that whilst a mother should not be breastfeeding a dehydrating baby at all costs, the baby shouldn't BE dehydrating in the first place because the baby's feeding should have been monitored and supported much better and closely before any dehydrating began.

She literally could see dd starving at yet, as a professional, still could not turn round and say actually at this point the best option for your daughter is formula. I can't imagine how horrific as a caring individual that must be.

Sorry but that's not true, she could and should have gone and got you a bottle, as is often the case you got a crap midwife.

starlight: yes I agree in an ideal world, until then I believe recognising that there is a viable alternative is important.

I actually also think some of the pro breast feeding stategies at the time didn't help. Not weighing DD on a regular basis as it puts mums off when baby loses weight not recognising the importance of dirty nappies. These might well have improved since. I was, as mentioned above, watch several times for an hour at a time during a feed and remained in hospital for two days after the birth. I was well monitored..

Actually that's a point. Breastfeeding promotion is within the remit of these professionals but they aren't banned from suggesting or recommending formula. In fact everywhere I went 'professionals' were 'recommending' that I gave ds formula to help him sleep.

Lunar I agree with you too. I think it is a very damaging situation we have atm, where breastfeeding message is promoted heavily but without the support structures in place to ensure it goes well.

If you put that together with the culture I meantioned before of women blaming themselves for anything that doesn't go right, rather than the professionals, you will get some who are so determined to do things right that they don't see that it can be damaging.

LOL 'well monitored' means nothing at all.

I have a ds with a disability and he is well monitored by people who recieve money to have him on their case-load to 'monitor' him. I don't want 'monitoring', I want effective outcomes and intervention.

(sorry, have a real bee in my bonnet about 'monitoring')

To go back to the points made about volumes of milk expressed being indicative of milk supply, I have this anecdata to offer up.

When parted from DD3 (6m/o) whilst in hospital and fighting to get a pump from Maternity ward, I was given a Medela Lactina pump. I have used one before and I am familiar with controls and how it works so that was not a onsideration.

I pumped with the Lactina and for each 28 sucks of the pump I got one drop of milk. After pumping both sides and barely 15mls in total I had a minor breakdown in front of the ward matron who arranged for a Medela Symphony to be brought to me straight away - I then got 70mls within a matter of minutes.

Same breasts, same time, different pump, different amount of milk expressed.

How many women try to see how much milk they 'have' and then blame themselves when vast oceans of milk don't come forth?

How many try another pump to see if the equipment is to blame for the lack of milk?

Not all pumps work for all women all the time.

On the lack of milk thing - some women might say to a casual acquaintance 'Oh, I didn't have enough milk' because to drag the whole heart-rending story up again might be just too much to bear. Feeding a baby is terribly emotive and sometimes it is just too distressing to tell to someone who is not a close confidante how you 'failed' in what at the time feels like the most important thing you will ever do for your baby.

Please note the '' - I don't think women ever fail at bfing - I think they were failed by the system in place to 'support' them .

I know, I read your posts with interest. ds has ASD regular lurker occasional poster on SN boards

"Actually that's a point. Breastfeeding promotion is within the remit of these professionals but they aren't banned from suggesting or recommending formula. In fact everywhere I went 'professionals' were 'recommending' that I gave ds formula to help him sleep."

Really, I guess I am mistaken there. It was however discussed last year by a midwife on womans hour last year. (wish I still had the podcast to check now)

Ps I had a superb midwife. Its easy to blame the professionals, yourself, your care at the hospital. Sometimes it just doesn't work

some women might say to a casual acquaintance 'Oh, I didn't have enough milk' because to drag the whole heart-rending story up again might be just too much to bear.

I think this is such an important point

OK, this keeps moving on too fast for me to respond to all the points I'd like to. So the following will have to do:

1. However I may have come across in my post I am NOT anti formula, in fact I am fully pro women making the choice that is best for them and their baby.

2. Many of you have assumed that my breastfeeding experience was easy - I never said this in my post and it wasn't.

3. I was not judging the mother in question for using formula or for not being arsed to spend time breastfeeding (either is an acceptable choice)- I probably was judging her for not being arsed then blaming her inability to breastfeed on a lack of milk. In her case, I really felt this was what was going on but accept it isn't the reality for most mothers who say they have run out of milk.

4. This one is the most important and what I was trying to get at, however badly, with my original post. If women blame a lack of milk on their inability to breastfeed when they know this was not the case for whatever reason (because they can't bear to tell the story, because it is an easy answer etc.) OR if people smile and nod when women say they had a lack of milk when further questions would highlight poor advice/poor knowledge re the realities of bf, are we not all complicit in continuing a general recieved wisdom that this is a common problem? For example, I may well have fully accepted that poor milk supply was to blame in all the cases I know about, then when my next friend has a baby and says "I think I've run out of milk, I don't want to use formula but have no choice" I might say "yes, that's a really common problem just use formula" rather than advising re cluster feeds, growth spurts etc. I can't think of a good analagy but it feels like accepting it when people make racist or homophobic comments - the comments are not based on reality and by accepting them do you risk allowing that attitude to become popular and accepted? I'm still not sure I've articulated that well but hopefully I'm a bit closer to what I was trying to get at!

Big apologies for being totally inappropriate and lowering the tone inexcusable

"But i could SUCK out gallons of it myself with my own mouth"

that is impressive amounts of bendiness!!

It also strikes me that this is now a fantastic support thread for those who believe they don't have enough milk.

LR Actually it isn't so difficult when you are breastfeeding. I could and had to do the same a couple of times when I got caught short without a baby to hand, but I couldn't reach now that I've stopped bfing.

Jammers - to a certain extent perhaps you are right. but how can we ever be sure that it isn't a common problem. There seem to be a lot of people with stories to suggest otherwise....