Do that many women really not have enough milk????

[Jammers]

I heard another mother today say she stopped breastfeeding because she "didn't have enough milk" and found myself getting really annoyed (in my head - I think I managed to smile sympathetically to the woman).

As I see it, people stop bf for reasons which fall braodly into one of two camps: medical or personal. (And I am simplifying slightly to make the point)

The medical reasons might include: mastitis, absess, repeated thrush, lactose intolerance in baby, very sore nipples, gestational diabetes etc. (I know all of these are surmountable but can make it more difficult to carry on)

The personal reasons might include: not enjoying it, finding it too tying, thinking your breasts should remain sexual, not being able to cope with the night feeds etc. None of these reasons would ever have stopped me from bf, however, at least they are honest and in certain circles it is brave to admit to them.

I feel that "I ran out of milk" is probably a cover for one of the personal reasons but masquerading as a medical reason, therefore inviting sympathy. I just think that if you can't be arsed to spend the time required to bf in the early weeks you should be brave enough to say so.

Am I wrong? Are there really that many women who don't have enough milk? (I now know 5 people claiming this) I'd like to know that my sense of anger is justified or be convinced that these women really have run out of milk.

Happy new year Jammers! And good luck with the peer support training

All well and good LD, but at 34E in the first few months of bf my norks still weren't big enough for me to have reached them with my mouth, or do I just have a very stiff neck

Interested and agree that there needs to be more honest information.

With DC2 one of the most useful things I found was a developmental 'timetable' which showed when babies would be prone to be more whingy / sleep disturbed / change behaviour etc. Really helped as I had bad PND and was a bit sensative to 'doing it wrong'...

Something like that for BFing would have been useful too ie. when to expect (roughly) cluster feeds / growth spurts etc and also the fact that growth charts are based on FF babies weight gain, plus honest information about the timing of feeds and general behaviour of a BF baby.

Maybe us women need to stop taking it all quite personally and look to the 'greater good' of educationg the next generation of mothers, so they do get the support they need and the right information.

oops - educating

DD1 - after a very slow weight gain and what was deemed to be hunger cries plus very very long sleeps , no wet or soiled nappies she was dual fed and I bf and bottle fed for 12 months. I wanted to exclusive bf.
With dd2 with help from a weekly clinic ( thats all I had access to ) i persisited with bf - I was feeding every hour and expressing to try and get a decent milk supply. It just about exhausted me and dd2 again had a very very slow weight gain and the doc wanted me to mix feed - However after 5 weeks more milk came in and we carried on . She was always below the correct weight but she very very slowly gained. So yes I had a very poor milk supply and I did not have enough with dd1 I did everything I should have done to try and increase it - I never did have a 'milk let down' and getting full boobs was magical when it happened. SO do have some sympathy for the genuine cases out there!

I agree that in a lot of cases mothers think they don't have enough milk through lack of information and support.

What I REALLY struggle with is when to give support and how far to push it. I have a friend who really wanted to bf her second child. I pointed her in the direction of good information, gave her support numbers etc. She had her baby and went through the first week being absolutely exhausted by the feeding frequency. I gently tried to tell her this was normal by saying I had the same experience with DS1. Her mum was there and encouraged her to start formula feeding as she was so tired. This of course led to supply issues and she stopped before 2 weeks.

I often wonder what I should/could have done. I could have pushed it, but I find it hard to see the line between supporting someone in the early weeks and not supporting their decision to give up if that's what they want. I know now that she's really disappointed she stopped and she really regrets it. I could have supported her more and she may well have gone on to bf. I didn't and feel very guilty about that.

The pressure to have a baby that is the correct weight or gaining in an average way on the right line can really make you doubt yourself. It's so difficult to have a small/slim baby who drops centiles when you feel you should have a big chubby one (especially when they feed so often!).

But the thing is in my case nobody even looked at the centiles - they have never been even mentioned. Here after hosp you get 1 home visit and then you take the baby after 1week to the paed. Then its up to you. there is a drop in clinic weekly . Both dds were just not putting on any weight . DD1 was not wetting her nappies and as the 1st I relied on what I was told to do and gave in to do mixed feeding sooner than I would have liked.
With dd2 the paed and the clinic were great and really supported me as much as they could but the paed told me that if she did not put on at least xg over a month period then things would have to be re looked at. I was on here ( thanks Tiktok)and contacted Laleche and another one I can't remember the name plus a bf specialist in Italy to try not to give in with DD2. I tried every bloody advice I was given and it all came down to the fact that up to 5 weeks I had a very low milk supply . SO I went through 5 weeks of hell with DD2 hormones and doubting that I could actually produce enough milk . Up to 6 mths I was feeding often 1 -2 hrs and needless to say at weaning she put on the lbs at a rate of knots. I am so glad for personal satisfaction that I did BF with dd2 but I wonder if I made her suffer in the 1st 5 weeks ?

Jammers - for the record, you did not offend me with your original post - you re-awoke feelings of hurt that I am trying really hard to conquer - even 13+ years after the birth of ds3.

I am not saying this to make you feel bad, but so that you will think about what you say and how you say it - especially if you are going to be a peer supporter.

Jammers - I FF from 5 days due to physical and psychological problems recovering from a traumatic birth. Whilst some people know the whole story it isn't one I would choose to share with everyone (and don't see why I should be "brave" and do so, I don't really want all and sundry knowing about the state of my bits). I might instead say "I didn't produce enough milk" which I don't think is far off as my body was putting all of its resources into fixing me. So feel free to judge me if you ever meet me and ask, after all I probably couldn't be arsed.

starlightwonderstarbright thanks for your input on what thisisyoursong was saying about her experience, I have had near enough the same experience in the last 2 weeks since DS was born and am driving myself mental. I'm going to try expressing and if that doesn't help it'll be formula feeding for DS and myself trying not to feel too guilty.

I feel really angry at the moment about MW giving conflicting advice to new mothers, and not being educated enough about the various things that may go wrong when BF. I've even had a BF consultant tell me the wrong thing which I only found out after I rang the NCT helpline (who are my new best friends!)

Thanks everyone who gave their views on this subject from a new mother with a 2 week old baby who latches on fine but is just a lazy eater. I have been reading this thread over the last 2 days and it's helped me with the guilt and will help us make a decision when the time comes.

SFCG - after the reactions on this thread I will certainly think more carefully, not necessarily about what I say but certainly how I say it. I am sorry you still feel so hurt by your experiences and it just makes me think - wouldn't you prefer that there was more clarity about supply issues so perhaps other women can avoid the feelings you have suffered with? If more was known about genuine biological supply issues they may be more speedily diagnosed and if percieved supply issues due to lack of understanding were recognised the right support could be given? Despite regretting the hurt I may have caused, I still can't see how it isn't in everyone's best interests that the truth be more readily available and spread.

breathslowly I am sorry to hear about your experience, but why not say "bf didn't work for me", rather than saying "I didn't produce enough milk". Again, I just think it spreads a myth about the prevalance of undersupply, possibly making it harder for women to get the support they need?

I also meant to say earlier to organic carrot cake - thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and for your balanced posts.

And to boobmeister Happy New Year to you too.

Right, I'm offline for a few days now, probably a good thing before I cause anymore upset. Good luck to everyone out there with your feeding choices, depsite everything I am a firm believer in happy mother = happy baby...

Oh and also bb99 "Maybe us women need to stop taking it all quite personally and look to the 'greater good' of educationg the next generation of mothers, so they do get the support they need and the right information." Agree agree agree.

Jammers - you are absolutely right - no way would I want anyone to go through what I went through because they and/or those supporting them don't know the correct facts, and I appreciate that, following this thread, you would raise these issues differently.

I also know that I was not at all well informed when I had the dses, even though I did the NCT and the NHS classes before I had ds1. I'm pretty sure that if I'd had access to resources like mumsnet, I would have been far better informed, and would have had far more idea of where I could go for help - and indeed I might have known that I could still get back to exclusively breastfeeding - looking back, I suspect I made assumptions, based on what I'd been told, that once breastfeeding had lapsed, there was no going back, so I didn't seek help.

With ds2, I honestly felt trapped in hospital - they weren't going to discharge him until he started gaining weight, and the only suggestion given was formula. I suspect I was heading back into PND at that stage, and didn't have the gumption to question the nurses, or to ask for more investigations or better support.

With ds3, I mixed fed from the word 'go' because I couldn't face the thought of failing again.

Looking back, I suspect I could have breastfed ds1, if I had had proper information and support - and then I would have been far better able to cope with ds2's problems - he fed constantly but with a poor suck, which, in hindsight, I think was the problem.

I envy mothers today who have so much help, information and support literally at their fingertips.

I do see what bb99 is saying about not taking it so personally, but it really did feel so utterly personal to me - I couldn't nourish my own babies - that was a hugely emotive thing - to be unable to do something so basic. But I am working on my feelings now, with the help of the therapy for my depression, and my blog, and I would always be very careful, given my own experience, not to pass on the wrong information to a mum who was struggling with breastfeeding.

And in conclusion, Jammers - I'd like to wish you a happy new year too, and hope that I haven't utterly alienated you by my rant - that was not my intention, and I can clearly see that your heart is in the right place.

OP - sorry I swore at you - from your follow on posts you come across more considered.

I am really a very stable reasoned almost emotionally 'cold' individual, but my struggle to hang on to the bf left me in the gutter. I had a very strong emotional (hormonal? intuitive - given that my Dd went on to react badly to ff?) drive to continue the bf - far beyond the 'rational' arguments. I pursued every avenue that was even half open to me (off label medication/ pumping/ 2 hrly round the clock feeds/ advice from every bf counselor , hv and their dog within travelling distance / herbs / GP, hv and hospital paeds / breast compressions/ all the KellyMom advice/ babymoons / babywearing / appointment with an oncologist : literally EVERYTHING). Tbh, after 3 children and varying degrees of problems, I could probably sit in the 'Mastermind' chair, with all of the snippets of fact and factoid I hoovered up on this time.

I could speculate on what my difficulty might have been - but, hand on heart, I could not have done more without putting my (very, very thin) babies in danger.

One of the most horrible and isolating expereinces was very early on with Dd1, when a friend recommended a 'fantastic' NCT bf group. I turned up at this largish church hall (about 35 women; friendly village vibe). The counsellor sat with me and with my Dd for half an hour, watched us do our thing, declared the latch perfect, we were doing everything right but Dd was really quite thin. Fair enough - I appreciated her time and input.

However, for the rest of that meeting, everybody that I spoke to - everybody - saw fit to run me through in great detail how 'all you need to do is feed more often and your supply will catch up', interspersed with heroic anecdotes about how they had fed through the pain of mastitis (but persevered, and it all worked out in the end) and so forth.

Like I said, I'm generally tough and steady, but it was truly horible to have to be repeatedly 'talked over' and patronised by people who had only a preliminary understanding of breastfeeding potential issues, particularly when my heart was breaking and my family were starting to suffer in our desperate, desperate effort to pull it off.

It was obviously a supportive and close knit group - but for a new mother in real trouble, I needed more protection. Mini-lectures ending with 'and I'm still feeding at 2 years old' just aren't relevant to someone holding a tiny baby with 'Failure to Thrive' stamped across her notes.

Incidentally, by the time I had Ds1 and needed some support, I found LLL a far better experience. They ran a more controlled group, where everyone spoke in the circle (not mingled like a cocktail party), and every meeting started with a mission statemement (along the lines of 'we support every family and judge no one'). I felt much more protected against having to talk through my story again and again, and having to bat back negative attitudes and scattergun 'advice'.

Oh oh - I forgot to namecheck the fabulous tiktok , moondog and frannyandzooey who were alway online on MN and ready to offer support when I needed it (in my old incarnation of Kif ).

SylvanianFamily - that experience with the bf group sounds gut-wrenching, and I can empathise so much. I was lucky that I didn't experience anything like this - people were very non-judgemental - but I judged myself very harshly.

I look back now at the pictures of the dses as babies, and they are all skinny - ds2 in particular looks almost emaciated, and I know exactly what you are saying about 'holding a baby with Failure to Thrive stamped all over their notes'. Ds2 wasn't thriving, I felt like the failure.

mumnerves - so sorry you have had to go through the same thing. Its terrible they don't pick it up earlier, it really does sound very common so I don't know how it can happen so much.

I found pumping OK until about 4/5 weeks, when they got a bit more awake and as soon as I sat down to pump one of them needed attention - but then I also had twins, one of which was showing signs of reflux around that age and I was on my own during the day.

I had a pump from the NCT, which was big and unwieldy. You don't need one of these, I found out later they are designed for use by multiple women (e.g. in a hospital) so its not necessary to have such a big one at home. Although like someone earlier, I did find the Ameda much better than the Medela.

Anyway my advice would be that if you want to start breastfeeding again in the future, keep at it now, even if its not every feed. Offer the breast first then some EBM. At least that way your LO will still be used to the breast and hopefully won't find it too hard to get back on at a later stage.

Good luck!