Support for those FF

[galonthefarm]

Not sure if this is the best description for a thread, but basically just somewhere for anyone who is FF who did not set out to do so - to chat to others about it, as there are so many feelings involved (yes, including guilt and also relief!)

My dd (5.5 months) is now exclusively bottle fed, using up supplies of frozen ebm once a day until its gone. She was 5 weeks early and we were advised to top up from the beginning so she put on weight. Now a very chubby 15 lb plus!

There are so many different stories I've heard from friends and on here, and I think it is so important to realise you are not alone in how you feel. I don't get on here much but thought would start the ball rolling! x

Fishandjam Hello! and welcome to one of the most supportive threads on MN. What a time you had, but well done for sticking it out as long as you did.
Love your manifesto - am sure what you suggest would have made so much difference to many of us on here. For me, the HCPs dismissing new mums concerns and problems, making you feel like you just need to try harder. And never seeing the same midwife (or BF counsellor for that matter) twice in hospital - made it so much easier for them to say "everything's fine, just carry on" knowing that they were never going to clap eyes on me again.
Anyway, welcome aboard - nice to see the thread's still going.

Hello jammy. You did great! One of the things which has always frustrated me is the 'your supply is fine, just because you don't think blah blah'. My son was jaundiced and putting on a few grams after feeding. When I stopped cold turkey my empty boobs didn't make a peep.

I am now pregnant and feeling ambivalent about it all. If this is a better pregnancy and birth I would like my boobs to flow like rivers. On the other hand, I've loved the shared responsibility of bottle feeding and my boyfriend loved being so involved. So in an ideal world I'd express pints in minutes. One thing is for sure, I'm not going to spend hours pumping when I could be enjoying my baby!

I will not be torturing myself this time, no matter the feeding method!

I'm so pleased to have found this thread .. I am typing this while expressing after having finally made a decision that tomorrow I will be telling my breast feeding counsellor that it's time to stop. It's only been 4 weeks for me (I did a separate thread about my worries re bonding yesterday). Ironically (and maybe because I feel relaxed now) I appear to be getting a good express now. I have to accept that my gorgeous little boy just will not latch on for me, not enough and with enough regularity so that I can feed him appropriately. I am going to try and do two or so expresses a day while my milk allows so I can at least give him some of my milk but my supply has always been very poor (another reason I think he doesn't like to latch on) so I don't know how long I can keep on doing it.

I will always regret it hasn't worked how I really really wanted it to but my little boy is healthy and I want to start enjoying him (and vice versa) and this thread has really helped me come to my decision so thank you all. DH is relieved I think as he has found it hard to watch us both struggle and has said he'll support me whatever I decide.

So pleased to have found this thread - I recognise my own experience in so many of the stories:

• gorgeous son (9lbs 11oz) born by EMCS due to malposition/malpresentation, felt like a failure not to have given birth naturally but now recognise that in some ways this vindicated the strong instinct I had from around 36 weeks and during labour that all was not quite right with his planned exit route. I admit bias here.
• reaction to epidural plus short-staffing/being immobile delayed skin-to-skin
• then flat nipples both sides meant baby couldn't latch at all
• hand-expressed colostrum but by day 3 baby was clearly hungry and I had spent all night (this was my third night with no sleep) topless behind the ward curtain trying to latch him on with no success - topped up with ready-made formula (my decision as he was so tired/hungry) before leaving hospital. Devastated but relieved he wasn't hungry any more as he had gone through screaming and on to just sleeping for hours and hours without waking.
• started pumping at day 5 when I got home.
• started on BFing and expressing, and then topping up with formula as he was still hungry (I think many of you will know how exhausting this is as it feels like it takes three times longer than just BF).
• tried nipple shields which enabled latch and together with pump drew out nipples more, but blistered nipples.
• milk finally came in after a week.
• eventually got baby latched on without shields so was EBF for a week or so but with poor/shallow latch. Really hard to improve latch because nipples were so damaged I couldn't feel what was "right" and I have large breasts so can't really see either without disrupting latch. I'm also very fair-skinned (not making excuses here but numerous HCPs have told me it's harder for pale gingers because they have sensitive nipples).
• Baby's weight plateaued during week 2 when I was EBF (well, thought I was EBF but actually I was just keeping him ticking over - he was feeding for 1 to 1.5 hours every two hours (inefficient milk transfer)), just leaving enough time to feed EBM before the next feeding cycle started. I was in agony, nipples had enormous bleeding holes in them and I was crying out with pain when he fed. And dreading him waking up. He was exhausted, I was exhausted and in a very bad place mentally and emotionally.
• BFCs and HV told me I could continue feeding on the nipples as they were if I wanted to but suggested I try resting them for 24 hours to let them heal. I ended up resting them for nearly two weeks before I tried BFing directly again. Kept expressing though. Enormous relief at not having to fear my baby's eyes opening but massive sense of failure that I hadn't been giving him enough.
• attended BF support groups, got advice from NCT tutor, MWs (three different ones at home plus 3 in hospital), HV, BFCs/infant feeding team and other mothers and used helplines throughout (in fact so much conflicting advice was confusing me in retrospect). Most thought latch looked fine but spent hours working with a couple of specialists who could see it was too shallow but nothing we tried (positioning, holds or latching techniques) worked long-term.
• now mixed feeding formula and EBM. I can pump 400-500 mls a day but for a nearly 11lbs 5-week-old baby that isn't enough. Every day or so when my nipples are feeling less battered I try and latch him on but I'm still getting lipstick nipples and it hurts so it isn't right. He latches on fine then drops the latch and goes shallow. Perhaps it's nipple confusion. Perhaps with more practice we would get it right. But for me, that way madness lies.
• I am taking so much fenugreek I think I must stink of maple syrup (I know I did at first but my nose is tuning it out) and when my son finally weans he'll want pancakes every day instead!

I know all the theory, have read every website I can find and got advice from everyone I can. I have beaten myself up over it, broken down in front of the HV and numerous BFCs and my family. I think I know deep down that "BF just didn't work for us" but it's still hard and I am partly clinging to the expressing I think. I feel the same way about expressing as I did about BFing and am dreading slightly when my milk dries up (where did I read that my body will believe my baby has died? So awful). The only person who is still telling me I could have tried harder is me. Of course, while I'm still expressing, I AM breastfeeding my baby at least partially and that's better than nothing, but in my mind it doesn't really count the same and I'm not giving myself credit for it.

I have been telling myself that there are three Bs: Birth, Breastfeeding and Bonding. I may have failed at two of those. But by making the right decisions (for us, not passing judgement on anyone else's decisions) at the right time, I am succeeding at the most important one.

Wow, that turned into an essay but I hope me writing it all out will help someone else who is in a dark place where I have been too over the last few weeks recognise that she is not alone, as all your posts have helped me over the many days it has taken me to read through them all.

Hello again everyone :)

Mollcat you have not failed at Birth or Bonding. I found this website really helpful in trying to make sense of what I'd been through with my EMCS and subsequent BFing story and how I felt about it all. You may find it useful too. Hope it helps.

Emotional Recovery After a Ceserean

Mollcat did you mean by two Bs Birth and Breastfeeding? Sorry, must have got confused with minis post above Either way, you haven't failed with any of the three! :)

theborrower that site is really useful and interesting (from what I've seen so far), thank you.

Yes, I meant Birth and Breastfeeding were the things I'd "failed" at, if I'm being harsh on myself. If I'm cutting myself some slack (which I'm getting better at and I hope everyone on this thread will get better at if they need to), then I did grow a beautiful healthy baby boy, and I've managed not to let a difficult labour, surgical birth and lots of BF challenges get in the way of enjoying getting to know him and being the best mummy I can be to him.

I'm checking in because I'm feeling a bit low today :(

Has anyone heard of the Growing up in Scotland survey (GUS)? Well, we were selected and had my interview yesterday. It's all sorts of questions about pregnancy, birth, feeding, relationships, weaning blah blah.

Anyway, first the woman expressed surprise that I had an EMCS (??). THen when it came to the BFing questions, I think the first one was "Did you ever breastfeed, even just the once?" (Yes), then "How long did you exlcusively breastfeed?" (never) and "How long did you breastfeed for?" (approx 7 months) and "Why did you decide to stop?" (I didn't, DD stopped because my milk supply was always on downward spiral and reached the point where there was no interest for her any more).

When I said "Never" to the exclusive BF bit, she got all flustered and said "But you said you breastfed?!" and I had to explain "Yes, but she was prescribed formula in the hospital" and I had to explain why, and she was like "BUt there's not an option for that [mix feeding] in my questions!".

Does anyone else still get sick of having to explain it, that people don't get that it's not always black and white and that it's not always a simple Bf or formula? I just came away from it all thinking, god, there's not even a recognition of it in a research survey as important as this! I still get a bit anxious sometimes when it comes to discussing feeding...

I'm sorry you were made to feel crap. :(

I would not participate in such a survey myself - predicting the bias.

I don't explain or excuse anymore, 'they' don't care about your traumas - you will always just me marked as 'didn't try hard enough'.

Nobody should ever apologise for feeding their child.

She was nice enough and certainly didn't intend to make me feel crap - she just let her reactions give away her thinking, rather than being completely passive. But why she got flustered I don't know - I mean, she must have done hundreds of those surveys. I even had a good mind to call GUS and point out a flaw in their survey. But certainly GUS is not all about feeding, it was just a small part of the research. You can read more about it here

'you will always just be marked as 'didn't try hard enough' ' :( I'm sure there's some truth in that. People just don't get that it's not always easy / comes naturally / baby can do it! I'll admit, I thought along those lines before having DD. What a numpty.

theborrower you're not a numpty from what I can tell. If you are for not knowing how hard it could be, then so am I - I remember joking with the midwife on the first night that my baby must be lazy because he would hardly latch on and if he did get anywhere near latching on (that was precisely twice in hospital) he quickly lost interest. I didn't really realise I had flat nipples before I had my son. I mean, they've always just been there and I haven't spent a lot of time comparing with other people.

We know we tried hard enough. Not that that stops us taking ourselves down a dark alley and beating ourselves up sometimes just for good measure. I'm sorry the survey made you feel crap. You're not crap, you helped me the other day.

This thread is wonderful, especially the linked articles. Thanks for them!

I was broken hearted when I failed to bf dd. I was bullied into that position by an hv coming to my door with scales every morning. When I expressed concern that dd was beginning to prefer the bottle the hv phoned a colleagu to tell her I 'refused to cooperate' and then buggered off and I never saw her again when I told her I was switching. That as when I realised I wasnt obliged to have her in my house every day!!

I decided to stop bf ds at 10 days as I felt I was neglecting dd while I sat on the couch bf'ing all day. Despite having made the choice for myself I still feel the need to justify myself to all and sundry. Am I really justifying it to myself?

A friend who bf and admitted she found it 'easy and convenient' made a few off comments to me the other day (cleverly disguised). It made me think perhaps it's the people who dont have a clue how traumatic it all can be that find it easiest to be smug and sanctimonious?

Oops, hope I dont come off as really bitter

mollcat, you probably don't want to go over this again but I am wondering if your baby has tongue tie and that's why you've had so many issues feeding - has he been checked for this by someone who knows what they're looking for e.g., a proper lactation consultant (not a gp, health visitor, midwife or even a breastfeeding counsellor) What you say about your baby slipping off the nipple and the shallow latch also makes me think tongue tie. It's so common, but so easily missed.

Can your baby stick his tongue out well clear of the bottom gum line? If not, even more reason to suspect tongue tie.

Should say, DS had a posterior (less obvious) tie that almost everyone failed to spot, and that made feeding pretty difficult from the off.

Do you know narmada I was just having the very same conversation with my other half?! A retired (but very experienced MW) at the hospital breastfeeding support group I'd been going to said she thought it looked fine but as you say I understand TT can be hard to spot. He can stick his tongue out of his mouth pretty well and form it into a point, curl it up nicely etc but I know there isn't necessarily any correlation between the mildness of the tongue tie and its effects. He does dribble a bit when bottle-feeding but I'm given to understand that that's because he's a baby and funnily enough his father dribbles a bit after a few bottles too . I do hear a click when he "drops" the latch but I think that's just the noise it makes regardless of the reason for the latch being dropped IYSWIM. It could also just be nipple confusion which means he isn't latching deeply enough.

I can see the frenulum clearly and it does run all the way underneath the tongue to the front. Problem is, having never had one of these hungry helpless things before I don't know what it should look like!

There is an LC listed on the LCGB website who covers my area - I had looked before but the hospital support group was so helpful, but you're right, I'm just not sure any more whether I want to go there as I'm afraid I'll end up being disappointed. The latch is improving, I think, when we try, but it's still giving me lipstick-shaped nipples most of the time (just not as much as before) which are a bit sore afterwards (again, not as much but that may be because we're not BFing 22 hours a day, just once for a little practice session in case). Today I actually thought though that for a little while he latched on pretty well, and he wasn't falling off quite as much and he stayed fairly awake. He still got fed up though so I don't think he was getting enough milk.

Aargh, I am now wondering whether "tried hard enough" means calling the LC and seeing if there is anything else to be done. I would face having to try and get my supply up and learn how to BF during the expected 6-week growth spurt, and pretty much on my own (other half obviously back at work now). I have started to make my peace with myself...

OK, so I've left messages for the two LCs who seem closest to me and deal with tongue-ties - just need to wait for them to call me back. I suspect that at 6 weeks it's a bit late to salvage much of a BF relationship though.

Mollcat, it is absolutely not too late, in all probability. My DD was exclusively and totally formula fed for the first 8 weeks of her life, at which point I went through the relactation process. No nipple preference in her case and no problem getting a healthy milk supply either. We were extremely lucky that it turned out that way, and it was damned hard work though. If you don't fancy it, then don't push yourself. You can enjoy your baby just as much formula/ expressing and bottle feeding and really, honestly, it is not going to do him any harm.

Clicking, dribbling when feeding etc can all be associated with tongue tie. Let us know what the LC says. DOn't feel guilty if you don't want to go back down the BF path though....I am sure you're a fantastic mum.

I just want to bump this thread as I have just read through it and feel a million times better about my decision to stop BF and moving to FF.

I hope it helps others suffering with the BF guilts.