Support for those FF

[galonthefarm]

Not sure if this is the best description for a thread, but basically just somewhere for anyone who is FF who did not set out to do so - to chat to others about it, as there are so many feelings involved (yes, including guilt and also relief!)

My dd (5.5 months) is now exclusively bottle fed, using up supplies of frozen ebm once a day until its gone. She was 5 weeks early and we were advised to top up from the beginning so she put on weight. Now a very chubby 15 lb plus!

There are so many different stories I've heard from friends and on here, and I think it is so important to realise you are not alone in how you feel. I don't get on here much but thought would start the ball rolling! x

Just feed him as much as he wants! I know that lots of ff babies go on a routine or schedule with feeds but with my little pickle I found that feeding times and amounts were as random as if she was bf on demand.
Water - I waited until 12 weeks to offer water and she very rarely takes more than half an ounce anyway!

Hello, I agree with most people on here. No mother should ever be made to feel guilty about the decisions she makes for her and her children. If BF isn't working (which there are countless problems that mums encounter) then mothers should have choices and not be judged for them. A mums job is hard enough without outsiders putting in their two cents. However I do believe more money and research needs to be put into BF to try and eliminate these problems, as we all know sunlight and fresh air doesn't seem to work for cracked bleeding nipples.

hello nina - hope you and you lo are ok.

glad to see this thread got set up.

nina - i would just feed him as much as he wants, when he wants, like you say he could be playing catch up or having a growth spurt.

none of my dcs have ever followed the suggested amounts on th packet, i'm not even sure why they put them on there.

ds (6 weeks) had 9 bottles yesterday. he feeds 3 or 4 times a night. as long as he his putting on weight, doing wet/pooey nappies and seems happy then he is ok.

I'd second Pomme, my DS was always about three months ahead of the amounts on the back of the tin. I think he was trying to make up for the weeks I'd spent cup feeding and trying to breast feed. He became a happy, contented baby when I stopped worrying about him having too much and just chucked milk at him constantly. He slept through the night from ten weeks too

My HV told me definitely no water but a HV on the same team told my friend to give water, they make it up as they go along I'm sure. DS wouldn't touch it anyway.

Good luck Nina, my DS is one now, it's amazing how quickly these worries fade from your mind!

nina - my son is on about the same as yours and he was born a few weeks early - so in "real terms" they're about the same. He's healthy, happy, poos & pees and is growing well (HV). I don't know about yours but mine is quite clear when he's "done" - sticks his tongue over the teat and pushes it out of his mouth. :)

As for water, if he hasn't pooed for a day then I'll make his bottles with 160ml of water rather than 150ml - you know, just to dilute it a little.

nina I agree, just give him what he wants. My wee girl (who has just reached the 9th centile after being well below at birth) will take just 80ml at some feeds, and 150ml at others. She has definite growth spurts and I let her lead. As ski says, the pokey-out tongue lets me know when she's done. Sometimes she feeds little and often - every two hours in the day. Then last night she managed more than five hours (bliss!) before downing 150ml in less than 10 minutes. She never quite matches what the tub says, but then there is no such thing as a typical baby at any age/stage and the measurements on the formula pack are just for guidance.

In addition to different volumes of feed, I am finding different teat sizes help to make the process easier. When she is tired, a faster flow (level 2 Dr Browns) means she doesn't have to work as hard, and gets her fill without dropping off or getting frustrated. But when she has had a good sleep and is full of energy, the fast flow and energetic sucking lead to serious mouth overflow - corrected by going back to Level 1 and making her work for it. This worked a treat at breakfast today.

Water - she had constipation, sorted by offering an ounce of water about twice a day. She's happy to take it on its own.

thanks for the advice guys :) my gut instinct was just to let him lead - hence him having what he wanted up til now - so I'll trust my feelings and stick with it. He's had lots more poo and spits up more since the FF switch but is also much happier I think. Def gaining weight. In other news, we've switched from medela breast pump bottles, to closer to nature TT ones (which we don't like, he sucks in so much air and pushes the teat down so far with his tongue that it pops into the bottle!) now on avent anti colic ones with size 1 teats which seem more comfortable for him. Trial and error continues!

Hey Hazeyjane :) am feeling much better now thanks. very glad this thread is active now too!

nina I started on TTs and switched to Dr Brown's. No regrets - they are lifesavers, and worth the extra expense.

We didn't get on with TT either! Very happy with Dr Brown's as per curly suggesting it to me a few weeks ago. Also like :

www.difrax.nl/nl/assortiment/eten-en-drinken/s-fles

Does anyone remember Johnny Knoxville? There was a pap picture of him last week feeding with a Dr Brown's.

Um, English here:

www.difrax.com/gb/assortment/eating-and-drinking/smart-sa-bottle

This is a cool thread.

I'm mix-feeding 6.5 month old DS, and have been from he was around 2 months old.

He is a total big lump, is 91st% for length and weight - very healthy boy

I have never had any problems bfing, although I acknowledge that many other women do struggle. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty leaving DS with DH or DGM so I can have some me-time, but I love the freedom that ff gives me!

I know this section of MN is breast and bottle feeding, but I do think that it leans to quite forthright and outspoken bf advocates, which can be intimidating. Even though I've beeb bfing for +6 months I still feel inferior to some who've been doing it for years and who have totally avoided ff.

However, I don't believe that formula is poison, so I'm happy to feed it to my child.

Anyone else feel the same as me?

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm EBF and fully committed to it back in the day my mum trained NCT breastfeeding counsellors FGS but after 6 weeks so far (and counting) of very sore breasts, I completely understand why so many people give up. And the BF Nazis who say "breastfeeding isn't meant to be hard/painful" and thereby imply I must be a crap, useless mother because it bloody hurts me REALLY PISS ME OFF.

it is great to have a thread like this, especially, when mums have really wanted to b'feed, and ended up f'feeding, because the day you make that decision is such a hard one, and it is good to know you can get some support here. Also, when I started f'feeding dd1, I was in complete denial about formula, and hated asking the HVs about it, so it is good to be able to come here and ask for advice about the ins and outs of f'feeding.

HOWEVER can I just say that terms like 'b'feeding nazi' are insulting, and I think it would be a shame if this thread (which should be a positive one) started descending into the usual b'feeding/f'feeding thread cliches.

It would be good if the thread was a place for advice, support, a place to feel sad when you feel the days of b'feeding are over and somewhere to talk about how we can make feeding our babies a positive and loving experience, despite it not being the way we may have foreseen.

Hi. I'm due any day with ds2. ds1 was eff from 6 days old. He just wouldn't latch on. The midwife sat with me for 45mins at one point & he refused point blank. He was screaming, I was crying. Its the times like this that a lot of people who judge ff don't experience or witness. I never got to the point of feeling the pain or the cracked nipples or anything else like that. for 6 days he just didn't feed from me. We were re admitted to hospital due to 13% weight loss & jaundice. I tried expressing & my hat goes of to anyone who gets on with that. In the end ff was the best choice for us. Both of us.

I'm not sure who mentioned the bonding but I felt I was finally able to bond with ds when the ff began. I'm so looking forward to the night feeds again. Just me & my baby with no one else around.

It took me a few months to get over the fact I "failed" but I don't see it as failing now. I've succeeded. I have the most wonderful, well behaved, healthy 2 year old and don't think I could have done anything differently!

We need this thread so as just not to feel so isolated. I sometimes feel like the only failure. When my baby was 20 days old the hv came round for her first visit and told me the best place to meet other mums was the bf support group. In fact this was the ONLY group run for new mums at the children's centre. So there's me, immeadiately excluded from the social scence like some phariah. All because I FAILED, not through want of trying to bf, I wanted to bf desperately but with a reflux non-latching baby and zero support I unsurprisingly failed. Thank god for my husband talking sense into me or I'd be straight into pnd.

Great thread, thanks.

I'm expecting DC2 and after an absolute nightmare with DS1. I am really nervous about the whole feeding thing. I tried soo hard to BF. DS lost loads of weight and ended up hooked up to machines in special care - docs said it was an infection, MWs said he was dehydrated from lack of milk (even as many of them were insisting that BF is best). At one point I was told I wasn't trying hard enough. I came pretty close to having a breakdown.

I too read loads of stuff, some that seemed scientific, some was new age earth mother b0ll56ks. I went to BF groups, HV drop-ins all that jazz. And was devastated when I finally decided to pack it in. FF was a piece of piss after that, but the guilt and sense of failure was intense. Even gave myself carpal tunnel from expressing for months after we switched to bottles. The whole time I was Bfing, apart from a week in special care, our DS was bonny, meeting his milestones, albeit rather scrawny. The shear amount of weight he put on when we went over to bottles felt like a huge slap in the face.

The thing that hurts the most is that I get the feeling DH thinks that DS ending up in special care is my fault for insisting on BFing. I was in such a state and I completely doubted my own decisions both at the time and i still do now. I know I can be stubborn and pigheaded, but most of the time I genuinely thought I was doing the best thing. Except there were moments of self-doubt when I wondered if I was putting us all through hell to prove a point. I'd really like to give BFing another go with DC2, but I don't know in my heart of hearts whether it's because of all the "benefits" or because I am trying to prove something to myself. If it's the latter it would be awful to muck around with my child's health for my own satisfaction. But then again, maybe it'll work better this time, and it really was an infection and this child will put on weight like normal. Just wish i felt like I had DHs support, but I guess he'll never really understand. The whole thing can reduce me to tears even now.

It can be so difficult when you feel like the only one who is formula feeding. I remember feeling so guarded and embarrassed at baby clinic - I hated going - because everyone seemed to pop a boob out except me... and when the inevitable question came up, "so are you still breastfeeding?" - it prompted my defensive and longwinded explanation of my hit and miss experience, ending with the story of the early morning feed where the baby virtually broke my nipple, my attempts with shields and expressing and my final decision to stop. I don't know what was worse - stopping breastfeeding or the public humiliation that followed!

Another point... (goodness, why wasn't this thread up 6 months ago when I really needed it)... I find it heartbreaking when I meet women who really should be formula feeding but won't dare do it because they have interpreted 'breast is best' to mean 'formula is poison'.

I know someone with a baby who was barely feeding as a result of bad reflux. Her paed told her she won't see her again until she's put the baby on a certain kind of formula but she refuses. She says she looked at the back of the formula tin and saw the list of all the vitamins and minerals but couldn't decide if it was good or not because 'how can you compare it to perfect breastmilk - who knows what is in it?'. A fair point, but if your baby isn't getting enough breast milk then she's hardly getting the goodness of it anyway. Flawed logic in my view - but the real problem is the absolutist approach to breastfeeding pushed by health professionals and do-gooders. Women need to feel they have the option of using formula - I don't think that means undermining the support of breastfeeding, it's just being realistic.

Hey ziptoes, my post wasn't aimed at you incidentally - our posts crossed! I really feel for you and wish you all the best of luck this time round.

Oh, wasn't taken that way at all. You are dead right about the flawed logic.

And while we're on the topic, I think the UN baby-friendly initiative, where hospitals can get struck off if one of the MW is reported for even mentioning FF is plain daft (that's what I was told by the MWs, not that I've checked the UN website or anything) Apparently the mother has to be the one to ask for formula rather than them offering. It'd be as daft having a natural birth-friendly initiative, where you get struck off for asking someone if they'd like to consider an epidural or a section even if they've been labouring for days. Now I have a great low-tech birth, gas and air worked for me. i think the medicalisation of birth for various reasons in countries like the US is shocking. But I'd fight for the right of women to have whatever pain relief or intervention they need, and celebrate the fact that medical science has got us to the point where women don't die exhausted in childbirth and babies don't die of starvation.

After my last post, I just had to go and check

UN baby friendly inititative guidelines on FF

I'm currently expecting DC3 - both my DS's were mixed fed from a few weeks old. They were both 9lbers and I just couldn't keep up the supply. And if necessary I will do the same with this one.
I find this thread really interesting.

My SIL really struggled BF her first DD - to the point where the baby was admitted back into hospital for losing more than 10% of her birth weight and was dangerously dehydrated.
My SIL was in a complete state as you can imagine - its hard enough just after giving birth without having to deal with that kind of situation. She was constantly in tears whilst in hospital, but not once during their time in hospital did anyone say perhaps you should switch to FF - it was only when her DH put his foot down and said 'Can we try a bottle?' that the switch was made and from that moment on she was fine.
When she came to have her 2nd DD last year she started to have problems BF after a few days and made the decision herself to switch, and again has never looked back.

I think mothers should be respected more to trust their own intuition and make that change if they think it is necessary - I'm sure any baby would prefer a happy FF feeding mum to a miserable BF mum.

Cross posted with you Ziptoes and what you just said about UN baby friendly guidelines fits exactly with my SIL experience.

ziptoes The WHO guidelines were drawn up in the 70's and 80's - in response to babies dying in 3rd world countries due to lack of clean water and mothers being too poor to buy formula, so diluting what they had and the babies dying of starvation.

So thank-you medical professionals everywhere for trying making me feel like a witch when I have clean water and plenty of money for formula. Thank you for comparing my situation to that of a woman living on less than a dollar a day.

missbonpoint Yep, I've been there - the long-winded explanation as to why I'm not bf. I need to learn to say "it's not for us" and offer nothing more! As for your friend - that's shocking on so many levels - but sadly it's not the first story I've heard of a baby losing weight or failing to grow and still people persist... Also, it's all well and good to tell yourself "breast is best"... as you chug down another glass of wine.

polkadotty Amen to that! Women - trusty our intuition - trust your insticts and do what makes you comfortable. There are too many winding themselves up in knots trying to follow guidelines - guidelines issued for women who (imo) are unlikely to take in the information anyway. It's only us idiots trying to do the best who listen/read anyway.

Polkadotty - that's outrageous. Despite the UN guidelines - there should be a distinction between allowing advertising of formula in hospitals and staff suggesting a formula feed if the baby needs it or the mother is having trouble with breastfeeding.

I think they are allowed. When mine was born she was tiny and would not take the breast at first, so very soon after the birth (within an hour or two) the midwife who delivered her arranged for her to have a FF. As I wanted to avoid nipple confusion I made them give it to her by cup, and I insisted further top-ups be my with EBM. The docs wanted her on formula top-ups, and the younger midwives were happy to go with this.

We were also readmitted, after 12% weight loss (I now know she has reflux), to the same unit. But this time I landed in the care of a couple of older MWs who were very supportive of BF. I had actually given birth during BF Week, and the one MW seemed pissed off about the message not getting through to her colleagues, and she was annoyed that FF had been suggested for my baby. TBH she and a couple of colleagues were amazing. They would get me up every three hours at night to feed as much as poss from the breast, then give my baby her cup feed top-up while I pumped. But that routine is knackering back at home!

Another mother with me on the transition care ward had chosen to FF from the start, and I never heard this questioned. In fact, I heard one MW giving advice on how to dry up her supply/stay comfortable etc. I have to admit being a bit jealous of the ease with which she fed her boy from the little Cow & Gate starter pack bottles!

So I experienced a push towards both in hospital, and it was me resisting the FF advice at the time.

Now I have wholly embraced it - especially as my girl is now giving me lots more sleep at night!