Sad about friend ff newborn

[herethereandeverywhere]

I know this is a subject I'm probably going to be flamed for but I haven't shaken my upset feeling so wanted to share somewhere if that makes sense?

Friend (actually husbands friends wife) had traumatic 2nd pregnancy, baby could have been born very prem but hung on until 37 weeks and 5lb 10oz. All is well and they're home, thankfully.

She ff her first one by choice. When her milk came in she hand expressed to relieve discomfort and threw it away . She's also ff this one he hasn't even had her colostrum.

We saw them yesterday (baby is 4 days old) and she was very engorged but determined not to express a drop, much less treat the tiny little mite to any. I couldn't help but feel so sad for the vunerable little bundle, rooting away as I held him for a cuddle. She then went on to make up a bottle from room temperature water and powder .

I have minded my own business but I'm perplexed as to why she'd do this and why, if you are going to ff, you can't even follow the instructions to safely make it up. I assume she did it with her first and her DD was fine, but much heavier at birth 7lb 10oz also born at 37 weeks.

I'm also a bit confused/surprised with myself as I didn't think I'd feel so strongly!

OP I don't know why you even started this thread.

Really, I don't.

So you feel sad for her. Fine, feel sad.

But still be her friend and don't judge or second guess her decisions.

That's all she needs from you.

LeonieDelt, I can hear that you have really battled serious problems in order to nurse your children. You should be proud of what you have achieved.

However dealing with your feeding difficulties has left you with a very aggressive attitude towards breastfeeding and in particular other mothers feeding choices and this is a shame and your posts have already upset several mothers.

It might be time to step back for a short time and maybe reread your posts with a cup of tea. It might make it clearer who or what you are so angry at.

herethereandeverywhere, I think you have been very brave posting this thread and have reflected your feelings very clearly and in an mature way.
I sometimes have mixed feeling about bottle fed babies missing out. As so much of breastfeeding is outside the actual milk transfer, I think about how breastfed babies can listen to mum's heartbeat, have their temperature controlled and comfort by being skin to skin on/near the breast.

Maybe all mothers could be encouraged to hold baby to their naked breast whilst feeding milk in a bottle, so their babies get similar benefits ?

Well, some of you have certainly taken my OP, made it your own and run with it!

As mentioned previously, I would NEVER say anything to the mum in question. So much so, I didn't mention the formula preparation for fear of looking "judgy".

For me, this thread has always been about examining attitudes and feelings - my attitude and feelings. In particular I was taken aback by the feelings I expressed in my OP because in a neutral environment I'm pro mothers choice AND have first had experience of how difficult, on many levels, bf can be.

I think perhaps my experience of bf, that closeness and nurturing which I felt (once bf was established) but didn't and don't feel with ff (just relating MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HERE!) is something which I projected onto the baby and his mum. My rational mind knows he'll be fine, probably gain weight quicker than a bf baby. I did feel he was vunerable but all newborns are and I think you feel that with every new baby you meet. It's one of the things that makes your heart melt and everyone go "ahh!". I think I was taken aback by unexpectedly feeling so strongly!

herethereandeverywhere, Don't worry about your thread, finding legs and running off track a bit...it happens

Especially when the topics are as polarised as the breast/bottle debate.

judge judge judge
none of your business

LeonieDelt, IMO your posts come across as angry, however you know your own feelings so I accept you are not angry.

I was just looking at the 2005 Infant feeding survey and find it interesting that....

"^24% of mothers in the UK did not initiate breastfeeding at birth and used infant
formula as the sole source of nutrition for their baby, fewer than the 30% of
mothers solely giving infant formula in 2000.^"

So 76% of mothers have wanted to breastfed and for one reason or another not been able to do so.

I do find your approach to breastfeeding support interesting. As personally I am more interested in helping (if I can) the 76% of mothers who want to nurse to do so, rather than berate the 24% of mothers happily choosing to formula feed from the start.

But as you pointed out earlier, you are entitled to your own opinion. Shame that you are upsetting others whilst expressing it. I just think there are ways to say things with more tact and less upset all around.

Is that for first time mothers? Is the 24% likely to be made up of mothers who tried breastfeeding with previous children and had such bad experiences they can't bear to do it again? What proportion of the 24% were on medication or had medical issues that made it impossible to bf? So many different scenarios LeonieDelt and yet you are judging all of them (again).
OP - a question to you - at what age would you be okay seeing babies ff without feeling sorry for them? Not loaded - just interested at where the 'cut off' seems to lie between 'poor baby' and 'poor mother she did her best'?

pomme - there is a drop in bf initiation, between 1st time and 2nd time/subsequent mothers. 79 per cent of 1st timers initiate, and 73 per cent of mothers having their 2nd or subsequent baby.

23 per cent of 2nd/subsequent mothers who formula fed from birth said they did so because they did 'get on with breastfeeding' with previous baby/ies, so that would account for between 1 and 2 of the women who started bf with baby no. 1 and then ff the next baby.

6 per cent of mothers who initiated ff - so between 1 and 2 of the 24 in a hundred who don't bf at all - reported they had medical reasons for not bf.

(These figures come from the tables of the survey Infant Feeding 2005).

I don't think anyone should judge reasons, though. Reporting them - as in the survey - is useful, of course, but deciding which are 'good' reasons not to bf (as you seem to be doing, pomme, as well as leonie) and less good, or somehow not acceptable, reasons, is to do the impossible. Who knows if someone is 'inventing' a medical reason, or exaggerating it, or has been misled by her HCPs, or if the first time experience has been really bad, or just a little uncomfortable....who knows??? It may be very subjective, and in any case, it's for the woman to decide.

I get really upset when I see posts like this. When you have a baby, everyone and their uncle has something to say, whether good, bad or indifferent. Motherhood is hard enough without other people (and especially other mums, who should know how hard it can sometimes be!!)making it harder by making a woman feel bad about her choices. Everyone's story is different!

The original poster did well to hold her tounge, as it is clearly something that she feels strongly about. I can understand why she wanted somewhere to vent (although for the record, I'm not in agreement with her.) and this is in part what places like mumsnet are for. So fair play I guess.

But, for the life of me, I can't understand the militant attitude some people have about BF. If you want to do it yourself, that's amazing. It's not the easy choice, so applause to all BF mums out there. But why then do some people have to push the opinions on other people? I dunno, it makes me sad that we are sometimes so hard on each other.

Live and let life I say.

Oh, and I BF my first for six months, and call me a freak or a bad mum (of which I'm neither - I think I'm a class mam even if I do say so myself hahaha!!)but I hated it with a passion. I was lucky, and didn't find it especially hard, but on a personal level, I didn't like it. Maybe it's something deep within my phyche (ooohhh), maybe it's social conditioning - I just didn;t enjoy it. I felt press ganged to BF from the start, and carried on in case I was judged.

I'm proud I did it, but with number two I went with the bottle almost from the get go, and had a much more positive experience. I also bonded much better with my baby, presumably because I was more relaxed and happy with my choice. So, no guilt from me, no matter how hard some people try...

If I was a first time bottle feeding mum though, I'd probably be feeling a bit sh*t now though, reading some of these posts! So, be careful girls - why would you want to make anyone feel bad? The white powder we feed our babies is milk, not crack!!

Apologies for the double post, PC having issues today!

I'm bemused by people who think we shouldn't have feelings about or a view or opinion on bf/ff or any other aspect of child rearing for fear of offending anyone who doesn't agree. I'm COMPLETELY in agreement that one should not upset fellow parents by directly and personally questioning or berrating an alternative choice, simply because it isn't what you've chosen to do.

But voicing and examining your own feelings in an anonymous internet chat room is, for me, ideal. Challenge yourself, challenge others but don't take it personally. And if you can't manage that - perhaps take some time to work out why that is.

If the posts make a bf-er examine why she wanted to or a ff why she didn't want to or why someone is so vehermently against formula or why someone can't understand how you can find fault with it then to my mind that is a good thing.

I don't want to live in a society which says I've made a decision so you shouldn't question or discuss it. Or "don't question or discuss ff or you'll make bottle feeding mums feel bad". Bottle feeding mums need to find peace with their own situation, whatever the reasons for it. Just as Leonie may find more peace with her own situation if she approached those that have made different choices with a little more compassion.

And if you are feeling too fragile to deal with what's said, you can always, after all, stop reading the thread.

I felt uneasy about my feelings which I set out in the OP, so I've been working through them here (and observed a few "interesting" sideshows on the way!)

I believe it's perfectly possible to be supportive of fellow parents whilst reflecting on the fact they have different views. Respecting someone else's choices shouldn't mean not discussing them or expressing that you think differently.

herethere- I agree with your post above, I think challenging one another is what places like this are for. But challenge needn't mean conflict (not accusing you of this here, like I say, I think you are perfectly right to explore your feelings here)and I think it's sad that some people choose to use these forums as a way of making other mums feel shit, possibly as a way of making themselves feel better. We mightn't agree on your OP, but I think beyond this you make perfect sense. Nothing divides the parenting masses like bf eh? And Gina Ford.

I feel sorry for ffed wee ones too tbh. Though again, I wouldn't admit it in real life.
I felt ashamed ffing ds1 when I didn't manage to bf him. But I did try. I hate seeing photos of him with a bottle when he was only weeks old.
I am now bfing ds2 successfully, but it has taken a lot of support both in rl and on the internet.

I think this thread has been interesting and also have a silent and guilty judge of people who don't bf at all. I failed to bf DD and still feel guilty about it because I didn't try hard enough to overcome our problems and I was really worried about not managing to feed DC2 at all. Thanks to advice on here I found out about local support, how to deal with the main problems and get through them so still feeding 9.5mo DS and not planning to stop... Thanks Tiktok.

I think the main thing really was realising that it wasn't just my failure with DD - it was a failure of support/HCPs as much as me. You shouldn't have to be a bolshy and demanding mc mum to get support when you need it.

Also it was my understanding that the reason the % of breast fed babies drops to nil at 6 months is that in this country any drop of formula or solid food counts as not ebf by 6 months. A baby who is having 9 bfs and 1 ff a day isn't counted. Is that right?

she didn't swap it as she wanted him to go 4 hours and he only went three with the normal formula (because he was tiny and would only drink 3-4oz)

I don't think that FF mothers need pity they have chosen/ the path has been chosen for them by bf not going well - to FF.

I do howver feel a twang when I cuddle a little baby who is rooting for milk as is their natural instinct and for them to be given a bottle.

That said, not all babies who root actively breastfeed well and I have to remind myself of that!

ebf - exclusively breast fed so that is my understanding. my ds was given ff down his tube by the nurses so he was always going to fall into that category despite me ebf'ing now.
i was advised not to bf becuase of medication, i bought hale's book myself and took it to the psych who wasn't interested. leonie gave me some excellent advice and links to help (i was under another name), don't think i'd have had the strength to fight for it with the doctors if it hadn't been for leonie's and others advice and help.
people should do whatever they believing, for me that's breastfeeding for others not.

azazello - glad I helped

You're right about the stats.

Exclusive bf at 6 mths is about 1 per cent. But many more babies than 1 per cent are breastfeeding, maybe alongside solids at that time (or, as you say, formula).

The stats don't fully reflect what goes on in real life.

That's interesting about the stats. DS was given formula in hospital because of his health issues/jaundice/weightloss/blah blah, so despite the fight I put up to breastfeed him after that, we wouldn't count either?

If your baby has had any formula, then he would count (in the standard terms) as 'predominantly breastfed for x months'. If you were asked 'how is your baby feeding now?' and he was not having formula these days, you would be down as 'exclusively breastfeeding at x months'.

FWIW - I struggled w/BF my first 2 DC's and feel sad/upset/guilty when I see photo's of them being so little (like 4 m or so) with a bottle. Here it is ok to feel like that w/your friends baby.

I'd also like to point out that I have since successfully BF my 3rd DC (still going at nearly 13months!). Yes I did struggle again but we got through it and I have even managed to go out on the odd occasion, been away on a hen weekend and a wedding (and he hasn't take a bottle of ebm since 5 months). I have made sure that my friends/family know that you can a) get over bf issues even if it hasn't worked out the first (or second time round) and b) you can still "have a life" if you bf (e.g. go out a few times a year) By doing this I hope that the women I know will at least try to bf and take it from there.

For what it's worth I was ff in the 50s after being born at 32 weeks, no incubators, and although I weighed 5 1/4 lbs when born I soon lost 1lb in weight - and I was in a nursing home for 7 weeks until I was 4oz short of 7lbs.

My mother didn't try to bf, she isn't the sort of person to give anything of herself.

The biggest obstacle to bf is that bloody awful Emma's diary. For starters it describes let down as a gentle tingling . In my experience it was more like having burst blisters on my nipples rubbed with sandpaper, and goes from bad to worse. The end result was for 3 months I felt like a complete failure.

I also had mastitis and sinusitis within the first 3 weeks. If only the article in mother and baby had been published while I was pregnant - it told me that the hormones that produce milk are produced while you sleep. If only I had known that having a sleep in the afternoon would have done a world of good in helping the production of the more satisfying milk and would have avoided the colic.

Yes, it still hurts that I went through so much from the birth in October until Boxing Day, which was the first day it was easy. DD will be 13 this year, and yet that early sense of failure persists, despite the fact that once it became easy I continued to bf until she was 20 months and SHE decided to stop. DD had suction that could have unblocked drains, yet it was still difficult.

FWIW there needs to be much more support, yes support, given for bf - both mother and baby need to learn how to do it.