Sad about friend ff newborn

[herethereandeverywhere]

I know this is a subject I'm probably going to be flamed for but I haven't shaken my upset feeling so wanted to share somewhere if that makes sense?

Friend (actually husbands friends wife) had traumatic 2nd pregnancy, baby could have been born very prem but hung on until 37 weeks and 5lb 10oz. All is well and they're home, thankfully.

She ff her first one by choice. When her milk came in she hand expressed to relieve discomfort and threw it away . She's also ff this one he hasn't even had her colostrum.

We saw them yesterday (baby is 4 days old) and she was very engorged but determined not to express a drop, much less treat the tiny little mite to any. I couldn't help but feel so sad for the vunerable little bundle, rooting away as I held him for a cuddle. She then went on to make up a bottle from room temperature water and powder .

I have minded my own business but I'm perplexed as to why she'd do this and why, if you are going to ff, you can't even follow the instructions to safely make it up. I assume she did it with her first and her DD was fine, but much heavier at birth 7lb 10oz also born at 37 weeks.

I'm also a bit confused/surprised with myself as I didn't think I'd feel so strongly!

I saw very similar when my DD was EBF and 8 weeks old. Very close friend's son delivered by CS at 37 weeks weighing 5lbs (IUGR) she was feeding him hungry baby milk formula "so he would go longer between feeds" even though he was in extreme discomfort after each feed (screaming for an hour even when been held) and she joked how when she stood in the shower the milk sprayed everywhere. While he was screaming DD grinned and smiled as she always did after a feed, which make me feel even worse.

To make matters worse she was told if he was born before 37 weeks or weighed less than 5lbs she'd have to express milk for him as hospital wouldn't want him to have formula. She cried and cried at the thought of having to give him BM. In the end he was born at exactly 37 weeks at exactly 5lbs so ok to have formula and go straight home.

I felt very sad but of course did not say anything. I know the idea of BFing disgusts her.

This was 7 years ago and I still think about it but her DS is in DDs class and he is now taller than her and seems perfectly healthy.

Just wanted to come back and say that although formula guidelines might not 'change all the time,' you do very often get conflicting advice. I read that you should boil the water, add the powder and then put it in the fridge, then heat it when baby needs it. My friend was told by our HV that you shouldn't do this as the formula can be contaminated in the fridge and you should boil the water, put it in the fridge and add the powder when it's needed (I think heating it before you add the powder).

37 weeks isn't considered prem afaik. Up to your friend what she does. All I can say is that as a mum of a baby born at 33 weeks I was put under huge pressure to bf by NICU. Or rather to express so ds could be tube fed. I did and ended up having to do mixed feeding when ds was 2 months old because of on going weight loss and threats from my rubbish HV.

It worries me that a mum's compassion towards another baby is met with "mind your own business" and negative remarks.

Whatever happened to "it takes a village to raise a child"?

Wanderingsheep - that was what I was trying to get at, thanks for putting it better than I could There is a huge amount of different ways of making up formula/bottles floating around and I think people are not sure what to believe or not to believe.

I agree, jem - no one is judging this mother's mothering as far as I can see.

But she and her baby are missing out on something worthwhile - there may be private reasons for this which the mother does not want to/need to share and anyone who knows anything about infant feeding knows this can happen, and there are rare cases where there is no alternative but formula, but none of that changes the 'missing out' fact.

But Leonie, if you read my post, you'll see there are often other issues that are influencing the mother.

Yes, I was stupid, not assertive and did not make an informed choice, but sorry I draw the line at being called selfish.

Leonie - please don't say mothers are selfish. You cannot judge the mother, only the situation, because no one can ever see inside someone's head or heart or personal history and know what else might be going on there.

YANBU to think it but it's her choice at the end of the day. I do kind of feel sorry for the babies who get no breastmilk at all, try not to but just do. I never judge anyone who can't medically though or who has tried it and gave up, I did myself with some of mine but i always at least tried.

I have felt just like this with a couple of my friends who have chosen to FF from birth. I am a hugely each to their own sort of person and so I found the way I felt inside when I saw them FF a newborn, without even having tried BF, surprising and slightly odd. I couldn't help the way I felt though. I didn't say anything obviously and do not judge their mothering abilities in any way - it's just a weird visceral feeling I have that FF a tiny baby seems somehow wrong (even though logically I know that it is not).

I'm glad there are some out there who understand me and I'm grateful if all those experiences posted which are helping me understand her decision in ways I hadn't considered before.

FF is such an emotive issue and anyone who has had a baby has a view. I certainly don't - as some posters have suggested - pity the LO or think the mum in question is anything but a great mum to both her kids. (In fact I've never stopped to think what kind of mum she is until typing that, why would I?). I told her yesterday how I admired the way she's handled the stress of the difficult pregnancy and how pleased we are the she and her DS are fit and well at the end of it all.

I have been thinking again about why I'm so bothered about this. I've remembered a conversation back at Xmas, when I was bf (with occasional ff). She was discussing with a friend that she'd never bf, wouldn't bf the next one and that friend said how she's bf for 4 months but it was 4 months too long. At the time I felt my cheeks burning, like I'd been embarrassed by them for bf, to me it sounded almost like she was sneering at bf. I'm sure they didn't intend to make me feel awkward but maybe that's made me more sensitive to, or coloured my views about the choices she's made now.

I hadn't considered a medical reason for not ff (due to her apparent confidence at rejecting bf) but perhaps that could be the reason.

I fully expected, but don't agree with, the posts on here which are akin to "shame on you for having this opinion/an opinion at all". I've sheltered her from my view as I know it would cause her upset.

BTW - I felt entitled to ask my friend why she was FFing - it seemed like reasonable question as she was talking about being engorged and that her DS got stomach aches from the formula. She said it was because it disgusted her. I think ok to ask as long as you are respectful of the answer.

Another friend tried to BF her first, it went badly as she was hospitalised with depression (she had history of depression) to the point that she was practically suicidal - I can assure you that NO ONE was judgemental when her second and third children were bottlefed from birth.

yes I do understand and share your feelings herethereandeverywhere.

Most babies end up being ff because of lack of support, or various practical reasons. That is not great but understandable.

Making a decision not to bf at all from the outset feels bad because it isn't the choice which is best for the baby and don't we all have the instinct to put our children first?

I think you're entitled to your views of course OP and FWIW I understand why it made you a bit sad. But also important to keep a bit of perspective and consider how you'd all feel if someone had posted something on the lines of:

"Went round to visit a friend whose baby cries all the time unless he's actually feeding. She's breastfeeding him 24/7 but he's so tiny and hardly putting on any weight - he's obviously ravenous, I couldn't help wishing she'd just give him a bottle of formula, he'd have been so much happier."

Now, I've no doubt I'll be flamed for that but I do think MN can be a bit judgey about FF and sometimes lose site of the fact that feeding is only one part of caring for a newborn.

As someone who ff my newborn (reason does not matter) - I was told by a midwife who I discussed ff with prior to delivery, that I should not express any milk if I was going to ff from the start as it would make everything much more difficult when my milk came in. So it may be that your friend has been given the same advice.

leatherchair please don't waste any more time on regrets though. They won't make any difference and are a waste of (much needed in the first year!) energy.

There are millions of decisions we make as parents. Some we feel we called correctly, others not so much. All we can do is what seemed right, with the information we had at the time.

I would have mentioned the formula preparation, because lots of people don't know the safety implications of incorrect preparation (including midwives) so it might just be she hadn't had the info.

So long as she's feeding her baby though, it really doesn't matter how she chooses to do it!

breast is best is such an uncompromising slogan.

The truth is that breast is probably, all things being equal, better than formula but of course the personal circumstances of mother and baby & household need to be considered.

Of course that doesnt make such a good slogan.

People choose to formula and/or breast feed for many reasons which seem (and therefore are) perfectly good to them. I would hate to feel that fear of condemnation from so called friends was added to the reasons for choosing one method of feeding over another.

Norky!! Didn't even know you were pg again, let alone had had no.2! CONGRATULATIONS!!

(ps I found Kamillosan cream a godsend for cracked nips, hth and it clears up soon...)

OP - I think you will find this article useful.

It's called "I won't ask you why you didn't breastfeed".

It is possible to be pro-breastfeeding without being anti formula-feeding!

There is nothing you can do now or say to change the fact that your friend is FFing.

In the future if you have friends who are PG you can lend them a book which is pro-BF or print out a list of useful links on BFing.

I passionately believe that you must not judge any individual for their feeding choice. You can judge "the system" i.e. the FF culture that there is in this country.

Direct your energy into eg supporting Baby Milk Action.

With regards to the preparation of formula - please do print out the following leaflets and then just leave them with her.

FSA leaflet.

WHO guidelines.

UNICEF guide to formula.

Maybe let her know that you are aware that the advice given to FFers is very very poor.

"why, if you are going to ff, you can't even follow the instructions to safely make it up." - again don't judge your friend - judge the HCPs who have not properly explained the risks/safe methods of preparation.

Judge the formula companies who IGNORED the recommendation from the Food Standards Authority to put the advice about the 70 degrees on their packets (instead opting to just say boil water and leave for 30 mins).

For those of you who are unaware - formula powder is not sterile. The manufacture process cannot guarantee to remove all bacteria. This is different from ready to feed liquid formula which has been pasturised and is sterile.

The bacteria which are sometimes found in formula are not ordinary household bacteria but as ViveLeFrak explained up thread they can be lethal - causing death or serious brain damage. Babies at most risk are new borns especially pre-mature or low birth weight and immuno-compromised babies.

Yes, the risk is low - BUT - most of us (given a full understanding of the facts) would not want to take a chance and prepare our babies sole source of nutrition in a risky way. People are normally much more compliant with the instructions on how to make up and administer medicines - but not formula.

To be fair it is is a fucking disgrace that the NHS and HCPs do not explain the safe preparation/the reasons for this/alternative methods of preparation. I am hoping to find the time to campaign on this issue in the near future.

SkiHorse - "As far as her method of preparation goes, that is standard recommended practice here in The Netherlands."

Are you aware that this means that the Netherlands is not following the WHO guidelines? Would you be able to link to any websites that explain what the guidance is from the Netherlands? (I am interested as part of my research into this topic).

I am wondering whether it is just the HCPs that you have come into contact with and the formula tins which don't have the WHO guidance.

I understand why the OP feels like this but I think that you should not comment to another mother's face negatively on her feeding choice. I also think that 'it takes a village to raise a baby' is as far removed from our society as it is possible to be and therefore irrelevant to the situation.
Regarding people who are pregnant/have babies making choices perceived as 'bad' versus people who can't have children but would do everything 'right' unfortunately having children is a privilege not a right...
But that's a whole different discussion!