Why isn't depressing seated racism on MN challenged more?

[FloweryCurtainTwitcher]

So. I am not black but I am not white. My great grandparents (as far as I know) were EE Jewish, black African , white African, Irish, North African and white British x3 . One of my parents was born and raised in West Africa until age 15ish.

As a child growing up in white rural England I was bullied about my big lips (they are luscious- no lip filler required here) and my thick black hair that has a definite kink (Jewish or African- who knows? Irish maybe? ). I didn't really think about my ethnicity until I grew up and reflected a bit more about it. But I did know that attacking people because of how they looked was wrong.

I find the subcultural of racism on MN unacceptable. The threads this weekend about Meghan Markle are indicative `(people claiming they are not racists they just dont like her- for lots of ridiculous reasons- basically she is an independent black woman )

I believe that we should all challenge deeply embedded racism constantly regardless of our ethnicity. Not just the National Front type stuff which is explicit but the deep societal implicit racism which underpins our society.

So why does no-one ever call it out on MN- why are so many posts with inherent racist views allowed to go unchallenged? Why isnt every post with racist undertones receiving hundreds of reports?

Is it pointless? Is MN like the MET police and institutionally racist ?

(5 years of commuting through elephant and castle- everyday saw MET police pull someone over. ONCE only were they not black- so 1000 approx stops- only 1 white)

For me as a white person, I don't see racism in all its forms because it's not something I've really had to deal with, I can obviously tell the obvious racist posts, but don't always get the subtle racism. Once it's pointed out I can then see it, but I guess because I haven't faced it daily for years I'm not as good at recognizing it. I had this conversation with a black friend a while ago and she pointed a few things out to me that were often said to her (some of which I'd heard) and it just hadn't registered with me that it was racism.
It's basically ignorance on my part, and I'm certainly working on my understanding of subtle racism, it's seems so obvious when you know, but you don't know what you don't know and that's where education comes into it.

FWIW I love Meghan, I loved the pictures of her smiling she looked genuinely happy and I much prefer her natural self to that of stuffy looking Kate.

Look at what is happening with Amber Heard and you can see how vitriolic campaigns of hate aren't reserved for POC.

Personally I believe a huge similarity in Meghan and Amber's cases are that both are perceived to have taken on generally well loved and established public figures. Whether their claims are true or false, it is obviously a massively controversial thing to do and is likely to turn many of the public figure's supporters against you. The fact they have made very high stakes claims and have been unable to definitively prove their accusations obviously doesn't help matters. They have both dragged people's names through the mud and the public simply can't be sure if this is a fair thing to do or not. Those that side with Johnny Depp or the Royal Family are unlikely to support the person that they feel is unjustifiably trying to destroy their reputation.

I also think there is something about the two women being actresses and the way they generally interact that unsettles people. To many, they come across as disingenuous and inauthentic. This isn't uncommon in the celebrity world and I think there are many other actors and actresses that do the same in public events and interviews, but any signs of insincerity is bound to play badly when you're making strong accusations against people.

Anyway, my point is that Meghan Markle may have criticism levelled at her as a result of racism, but I think there is a highly compelling argument that she would be subjected to a very high level of criticism anyway as a result of her actions and other aspects of her persona. It is therefore unfair to jump on any poster criticising her and suggest that racism has a played a role in their dislike of her or that everyone is on some racist bandwagon. There are lots of credible and less credible reasons to dislike Meghan Markle that don't relate to race at all.

@AnonIsUsuallyAWoman

I think you'll find there is plenty of "systemic campaigns of vitriol" against white people including Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Prince Andrew. There's quite an effort against Jack Monroe, JK Rowling and Katie Price. That's just a few.

Apart from JK Rowling-they all deserve it as does Megan Markle. She doesn't get a pass and I won't be cowed into not speaking ill of in case someone comes along and wants to imply that by daring to do so I must be racist!

Meghan Markle 'deserves' what you yourself describe as 'systematic campaigns of vitriol'?

Can you even hear how insane that sounds about a woman you literally do not know?

Look at what is happening with Amber Heard and you can see how vitriolic campaigns of hate aren't reserved for POC.

Nobody is saying campaigns of hate are reserved for POC.

They're saying that campaigns of hate against POC featuring either subtle or overt racism are racist.

Both seem manipulative women to me and just because one is black, doesn't means she get a pass.

Where are all the Camilla threads?

Never ever seen one.

However I have seen at the last count (about 2 years/18 months ago) 350+ on Meghan

There would have been loads of threads about Camilla in the late 1990s if Mumsnet had been around. It's easy to underestimate now the strength of negative feeling there was around Camilla, Charles and even the Queen after Diana's death. Times move on though and as the decades have past the public has simply got used to Camilla being around and she has weathered the worst of the storm. She hasn't really done anything controversial since she has joined the Royal Family and doesn't seem desperate to keep herself in the limelight. In fact I think her strength has been that she has remained largely in the background and has cast herself as a seemingly supportive character that undertakes her duties in a professional way. I guess she has made herself slightly dependable and boring so naturally public attention is drawn elsewhere to the latest scandal.

I'm sure a similar thing would happen to Meghan and Harry if they followed a similar approach to Camilla, however I don't think that is what they will do at all. They have very different aspirations and seem rather more keen on courting public attention.

Where are the Andrew threads then? M+H did nothing IMO. Where are the Andrew threads?

@Mosmuma

When it was all building up slowly but surely, I started threads and it was like tumbleweed on there, very little response. On Meghan threads I would bring him up and be told to go and start a thread on him and stop talking about him on the We Want to Keep this Thread to insult Meghan. I would then link to the Andrew threads, to prove I had, did anyone come across? Nah.

When the court hearing was going on and he was dodging being served papers by US justices, they got a bit busier.

When the payout happened, again there was some traffic, and I know because I started most of them, I find him an awful duplicitous entitled nasty individual and I kept on and on and on about him.

I totally agree with you though, it was a fraction of the scale of threads on Meghan.

@Mosmuma

There was an Andrew thread recently (this year I think) about him not attending an event which moved into how the queen must feel about him/whether she didn’t want him there and so on. On the second page ‘well what about Meghan and Harry and all the stress they must have caused the queen?’

"I find the subcultural of racism on MN unacceptable. The threads this weekend about Meghan Markle are indicative `(people claiming they are not racists they just dont like her- for lots of ridiculous reasons- basically she is an independent black woman )"

I cannot stand her - nothing to do with her colour I just despise publicity seeking woke no bodys who think the world should be interested in them.

I am not allowed to dislike any one who is black then?

"(5 years of commuting through elephant and castle- everyday saw MET police pull someone over. ONCE only were they not black- so 1000 approx stops- only 1 white)"

Most people in EC are black.
I am white I have been stopped by the police.
My best mate is black he has not been stopped once but as he says himself his car is legal and he drives like old Mary

😂😂😂 ridiculous isn't it. But people will bend over backwards to say it's nothing to do with race

No, they just hate her and despise her personality and her smiling and it would actually be racist if they didn’t post nasty shit about her just because she’s black and actually they’ve been pulled over by the police and their black best mate never has so really racism doesn’t even exist so SHUT UP. And op actually had to ask why people don’t challenge it. I mean what’s the point? It’s like trying to talk to a brick wall,

And then when it leads to something like this -
metro.co.uk/2022/06/08/harry-and-meghans-son-targeted-by-white-supremacists-in-podcast-16789054
people act surprised.

Most white people are racist ( Myself included) I don't mean to and work towards fixing it and making sure my children don't have the same bias built within them. Perhaps it's time to listen when told it's racist?

Meghan is hardly a woke nobody. I think that anybody who uses the phrase "woke" in a negative way, is racist though.

I agree that a lot of the commentary around MM is racist (and also quite possibly sexist) in tone.

I mean, firstly because what MM has done is not even close to what PA has done and they get compared by commentators, which suggests truly disproportionate rage.

My own personal view on this I don't actually think that what M+H have done by leaving the RF is bad - being a senior royal would not appeal to me (and didn't appeal to many of H's former GFs). I don't think the "speaking their truth" (some of which seems not very truthful) and the selling stories/Oprah stuff is very impressive, but it doesn't merit the amount of vitriol that it gets (and no one should get what MM gets online) and it is very telling that it is directed at MM more than H, as if H has no independent will and has been led astray. Frankly, if you sell stories about your family (and it is H's autobiography that has been sold and which the RF are still expecting to be damaging), you are to blame, not your wife. I think MM was fundamentally unsuited to the royal role as someone who was so used to being independent (and who clearly likes to be political - nothing wrong with that, just not suited to the British RF), but I don't blame her for it really. H failed to prepare her for it and the palace have not covered themselves in glory either - W+k had time together out of the limelight, whereas the palace pushed the Fab Four forward as a beacon of diversity when it suited them, but wanted her to simper in the background for tradition's sake when it suited them too. Not to mention allowing negative stories about H+M to cover for W's indiscretions.

Do I think MM is flawless, nope, because none of us are. Do I agree with all of her behaviour - also nope. But a bit of constructive criticism mixed with a level of empathy for the situation MM found herself in is not what MM gets.

Using "woke" as a negative term is inherently racist. It comes from African American Vernacular English and means being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination. Being woke is a good thing.

I always like being called woke because it clearly identifies the person calling me it for who they are
And it means I'm doing something right
But I am a white woman though

But it will be argued by them because she is mixed ethnicity not black that it's not racist.

🙄

But it will be argued by them because she is mixed ethnicity not black that it's not racist.

Or they'll say 'the meaning of the word has changed!!' Like it isn't them that have purposely changed it to use it against us

And they’ve probably got a black friend or they like Denzel Washington so how can they be racist?

This.

Well the fact white posters hate Meghan so much, and are so invested in "proving" it's not racist, that they actively invade a section that's specifically for black people, really says everything.

The other day someone in one of the other Meghan threads posted "as a white parent of a mixed-race child, the comments on Archie's skin colour are normal and not racist" then immediately called me a racial slur when I politely said it's not really okay for white people to tell black women what is and is not racist.

I’m white and strongly feel that the media coverage of Meghan as opposed to Kate (for example) was racist especially the crap spilled by the daily mail. I really think if Prince Louis (perfectly normal 4 year old) behaviour had been Archie’s she would have been ripped a new one for her ‘out of control and aggressive’ son.