Why isn't depressing seated racism on MN challenged more?

[FloweryCurtainTwitcher]

So. I am not black but I am not white. My great grandparents (as far as I know) were EE Jewish, black African , white African, Irish, North African and white British x3 . One of my parents was born and raised in West Africa until age 15ish.

As a child growing up in white rural England I was bullied about my big lips (they are luscious- no lip filler required here) and my thick black hair that has a definite kink (Jewish or African- who knows? Irish maybe? ). I didn't really think about my ethnicity until I grew up and reflected a bit more about it. But I did know that attacking people because of how they looked was wrong.

I find the subcultural of racism on MN unacceptable. The threads this weekend about Meghan Markle are indicative `(people claiming they are not racists they just dont like her- for lots of ridiculous reasons- basically she is an independent black woman )

I believe that we should all challenge deeply embedded racism constantly regardless of our ethnicity. Not just the National Front type stuff which is explicit but the deep societal implicit racism which underpins our society.

So why does no-one ever call it out on MN- why are so many posts with inherent racist views allowed to go unchallenged? Why isnt every post with racist undertones receiving hundreds of reports?

Is it pointless? Is MN like the MET police and institutionally racist ?

(5 years of commuting through elephant and castle- everyday saw MET police pull someone over. ONCE only were they not black- so 1000 approx stops- only 1 white)

Whoops_ I meant depressingly deep seated racism

Only just joined (literally in last couple of hours) and slightly sad to read this.

I find MNHQ respond with alacrity on this board if racist posts are reported. I’ve sometimes felt moved to report several posts in a single thread here and sometimes they’re gone by the time I return to the thread.

But they seem less … certain of their ground on the rest of the site. I recall in particular a post saying something like “Why are you so worried about gun violence; it’s usually only black youths being killed.” It wasn’t taken down. I came as close as I ever have, over more than a decade, to signing out for good that day.

@FloweryCurtainTwitcher

So why does no-one ever call it out on MN- why are so many posts with inherent racist views allowed to go unchallenged? Why isnt every post with racist undertones receiving hundreds of reports?

Believe me I do. On those Meghan threads there are some disgusting posts and I report report report. Please know that we are not all passive and let it go on, I do my best, as do others. It's very wearing.

I agree with you @FloweryCurtainTwitcher

I think part of the issue comes from the mods that are used lacking diversity.

Its lovely to hear your family history- mine is a very mixed bag like that too!

Awful post about the black youths. That should have been taken down.

If there are lots of reports that posts about Meghan Markle are racist, then it's no wonder mods are confused. Telling people that their perceptions of her are wrong, and that they don't understand that the real reason they don't like her is not because of her double standards but because they're racist, that can't help.

I don't get what you are saying about Meghan Markle, OP. How can you say the reasons which people are citing for not liking her are 'ridiculous'?

You could pick any number of valid reasons: disowning her father and claiming he didn't fund her education, is a drastic one. Saying on Oprah that Catherine ought to have made it clear to the press that it was Meghan who was the one upset about the bridesmaid dresses - when the RF are basically not allowed to discuss personal stuff like that with the press. Issuing a statement carving a progressive role within the RF, without clearing it first with the rest of RF - thus de-stabilising institution with all the pettiness. Complaining that she is not being asked if she is ok, and hard it is, when she has just visited impoverished teenage girls who are learning self-defence to protect them from rape. This last one is outrageous, in my view.

If people are racist, why do they always say how dignified, graceful, beautiful and admirable is Meghan's mother, Doria? If Doria was seen out and about more, I think she would regularly be written about/voted for in polls, as one of the most stylish trailblazers.

I've wondered if there's bias amongst the mods. We all have bias, but if we don't recognise it, then we can't work at it.

I remember a thread on the feminism board last summer, with several posters insisting that Central Park Karen was a victim somehow, and that there was nothing at all racist about her calling the police on "an African American man" when it was finally becoming clear to a new generation of American white people just how bad the policing was. There was a reason the public came down hard on her.

More people than me (I'm white) called out that "she's a victim" argument. But the thread was allowed to stay up.

Could be there's an existential discussion about balancing free speech against hate speech at MNHQ, which seems less solid when you realise you could have an entire discussion thread deleted because it refers to another thread. Or there could be a more cynical motive... controversial topics tend to generate more clicks and therefore ad revenue. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yeah I don’t get the taat rule- I do think it limits discussions.

Yes - clicks win ads. Which is sad but true. However, it’s also what pays for lots of media. What’s interesting is seeing WHAT ads run but that’s as they say “- a whole other thread”

I notice unconscious racism on baby names threads. If you dare to ask about a name that doesn't confirm to the traditional or classic names beloved by MN, you'll get vilified.

This. I really believe that a major part of the problem is not only the racists posters, but the obvious lack of diversity amongst the mods. I reported something recently, only to have a mod ask me for clarification as to what I was objecting to. I was so fed up by this point, that I just could not muster the energy to reply, and just logged of. I felt that it was glaringly obvious from what was written, how offensive the post was. But the mod could not, with out an explanation.

The problem for me is that it's all very hopeless and depressing that there is this rift and failure of understanding - and these Mumsnet threads seem to be making this worse not better. The more people try to explain their thinking, the more they antagonise people and get accused of worse things.

To me, you cannot extrapolate trends from two different threads: 'Karen' - a very serious case of racism, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, irritation towards Meghan and Harry, two people who are going to publish a book soon, trashing their family some more. It's not a big enough sample. And this debate is getting nasty. Apparently, I learn, white women look old and have thin scraggly hair, so it's an insult for the press to make Meghan look like an old white woman.

It's also unfair to insult people who are born into old money. It's hardly their fault. It's what they do with their privilege that counts; how they use their influence for good. Those born or married into royalty may or may not using their influence for the general good, and can be held to account for their actions, but it's wrong to scorn them as individuals because they are too white and too upper middle class.

Maybe Mumsnet should ban threads which are based on a flawed premise. It's too strong to suggest that people 'hate' Meghan and Harry. Some people are irritated, but Mumsnet shouldn't allow a discussion about 'hating' because it has been shown time and time again that such threads incite more hurt and ill-feeling.

I’ve noticed this too more recently than ever, there were two threads within 24 hours of each. One about blackface and whether it’s offensive (lots of posters say no it isn’t ) and if it’s offensive to give a mixed race character with no relation to Jamaica a Jamaican accent. Also some pretty bad posts on FWR.

I’d definitely be interested in knowing how MNHQ deal with racist posters, because currently it seems they don’t. I see posts get deleted and then the same posters popping up somewhere else saying something equally vile. Some of the worst poppers on this board are still posting.

If MNHQ have a 3 strikes rule for deleted posts on FWR why can’t they have the same 3 strikes rule for other posts. I’ve noticed a lot of homophobia and ableism too.

I see posts get deleted and then the same posters popping up somewhere else saying something equally vile. Some of the worst poppers on this board are still posting

Yep. Seen it time and time again. I've been at the blunt end of it too. I'm adept at recognising writing styles. And you know why it happens so easily?
Name changing.
If that was done away with MN would be a far easier forum to moderate.
A poster posts something vile, hateful, racist. They eventually get banned. They just come back with another name and it takes a lot of moderator's time to track ISPs, VPNs and the like.
Or they sail close to the wind with nasty views, realise that they are getting lots of deletions, so NC and start again.

I agree. The ability to namechange on here, is part of the problem.

I don't like MM. And for example, I don't like the way she was beaming (again) all through the church service yesterday.
I don't like Sarah Ferguson either.

Does that make me racist against MM? If I was black, would that make me racist against SF?

Oh god this thread is going to turn into all the “valid” reasons why people don’t like MM isn’t it

I think the basic problem is that a lot of people in the UK think that it's only racism if people are explicitly saying 'I hate (X) people'. They don't understand structural racism, unconscious bias, micro-aggressions etc and if you try to explain, they get very defensive and refuse to accept it.

See the post above about liking Doria and not Megan. A classic 'but I have black friends' defence.

Unfortunately I don't expect MN to change any time soon. All we can do is keep reporting, I guess.

Yep. She was smiling. Shock horror.
And someone really didn't like her wearing a coat dress. How dare she

The 'I have black friends' defence has some validity. If you were institutionally racist within your extended family - however subliminal and unacknowledged and unstated - you maybe wouldn't confide your innermost thoughts to your black bestie, but, I've always wondered, when does it not apply that you are not of the ethnicity in question, so you must be racist?. If your husband is of a non- white ethnicity and you are Caucasian, does that mean you are no longer racist? Or do you have to have children with him before you no longer qualify as racist? Is it like some Christians' view of original sin, where you are born with it, because of Adam and Eve, and you can be saved by receiving the sacrifice of baptism? Or is it always the case that if you critisize a person of colour it must be racially motivated?

@FloweryCurtainTwitcher
They have followed you to your thread from the MM thread.

Would you prefer "willfully stupid and goady"?

And that’s why OP shouldn’t have used her as an example- it was a poor choice.

This. I dislike Megan and Harry for multiple reasons. It doesn't make me a racist 🙄 People are allowed to dislike people for all sorts of reasons!

I used to love MM in suits. Her on screen dad was black so even though she looked white on the series, I was quite well aware that she was mixed race. This was irrelevant in whether I liked her - I thought she was fantastic. When it came out that she was marrying PH, I thought it was really cool. I watched the wedding with family and friends. At the time, my feelings towards PH were neutral. I didn’t like or dislike him. The royal family overall, I was also neutral towards.

What turned like to dislike (and the dislike
is of both MM and PH together as one) was things like:

-multiple family fallouts (her dad, 2x siblings, his brother, sil etc) and best friend fallouts. there comes a point where this is a pattern, not just a couple of disgruntled people
-saying they wanted privacy, but doing an explosive interview with Oprah in which they accuse someone unnamed of being racist. I really hated that smoke and mirrors stuff - I would have been fine if they’d said “[named] royal is racist because they said [direct quote] in [context of situation]. But instead they have smeared an entire family with broad accusations
-preaching to us little people about what we must do about climate change whilst private jetting about
-photo opportunities galore (whilst wanting privacy)
-preaching about inequality whilst living in a 14 million dollar mansion amongst the world’s richest

it isn’t racist to dislike a black person, unless you actually dislike them because they are black. I used to like her and now dislike her. She didn’t change colour.