'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

@OrangeGrovesAplenty

Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

Women as a class are not going to be free from oppression without addressing racism. They are seldom separate issues.

There are so many feminist issues that can’t really be addressed fully without considering racism. What about the core feminist issue of domestic violence, for example? How many times do we see “call the police” as the default response to a victim of domestic violence? Does this response take into account that calling the police can result in very different outcomes for a black woman and her black family than it will for a white woman? (I should add that I’m American so speak from that perspective, but I think that there are similar issues in the UK from what I have read.)

And that this black woman has a far greater chance of having to deal with structural racism at every turn in the process? Social services? The judicial system? Even domestic violence agencies and shelters?

So if domestic violence is an important issue for feminism, then disrupting structural racism in the systems that serve survivors of violence against women have to be part of the solution.

An excellent example, thank you

@Lndnmummy
Was wondering what happened there.

@Lndnmummy

I was banned for breaking talking guide lines last week for calling a white woman who was shoting at an autistic 7 year old black girl in a park "Karen". The women on that thread were more appalled that I'd used the term Karen than the white woman having shouted at the 7 year old little autistic girl. Of course. Posters then piled on and called me a deranged and disturb drunk. I dont think they were banned though. Of course. I asked *@MNHQ* for an explanation, received nothing. Of course.

classic Mumsnet racism at play 🙄

May I ask, are you a white woman, @Lndnmummy ?

@MorrisZapp

My name is Karen. If I see it trending I will read and comment, would be pretty odd not to because only people a different colour to me are allowed to discuss the meaning of my actual name.

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it.

I'll continue the conversation on parts of the site where everyone can speak.

😆 Seriously?

@TheRealMrsMac

May I ask, are you a white woman, *@Lndnmummy* ?

@TheRealMrsMac yep

"In an attempt at being constructive" 🙄

Yes, I was genuinely asking how I could help.

Oh well, I'll ask on twitter

Since seeing this Topic (And being Ignorant on the true terms of “ Karen” and Womanface ( co - opting the term for “ Blackface”) I have done some online searching.
Some of the videos of “ Karens” are shocking.
White Woman attempting to physically assault a Black Woman in a shop , and then weeping histrionically and pretending to faint when she realised she was being filmed.
Another White Woman calling police on a little girl selling water?!
A White man calling police when a Black child was mowing a lawn to earn pocket money.
There are probably many more examples.

( All in USA).
These are Karens .

I personally will never use the term “ Womanface” again in reference to Trans issues.

Blackface is deeply offensive-
Parents spoke years ago at being glad that a certain show on TV on Saturday nights in the 1970’s was ended that featured White males .

@OrangeGrovesAplenty

Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

Women as a class are not going to be free from oppression without addressing racism. They are seldom separate issues.

There are so many feminist issues that can’t really be addressed fully without considering racism. What about the core feminist issue of domestic violence, for example? How many times do we see “call the police” as the default response to a victim of domestic violence? Does this response take into account that calling the police can result in very different outcomes for a black woman and her black family than it will for a white woman? (I should add that I’m American so speak from that perspective, but I think that there are similar issues in the UK from what I have read.)

And that this black woman has a far greater chance of having to deal with structural racism at every turn in the process? Social services? The judicial system? Even domestic violence agencies and shelters?

So if domestic violence is an important issue for feminism, then disrupting structural racism in the systems that serve survivors of violence against women have to be part of the solution.

You are right the issues are exactly the same in the UK and have been recorded as such.

For example Valerie Ford -
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/15/police-urged-to-better-protect-black-women-who-face-domestic-abuse

Posters may say the case is old but the assault of Child Q shows that the Met police (and other forces) do not learn any lessons.

@Lndnmummy google who "Caryn Elaine Johnson" is otherwise known as.

I saw a clip of her and others talking about "Karens" where she said her real name is Caryn. She is personally offended she has to share her name with a group of entitled white women known to terrorise the black community.

I personally will never use the term “ Womanface” again in reference to Trans issues

Thank you oakleaffy

For 'getting it' via doing what others haven't done because their urge to other, minimise and dismiss Black Women is just too strong - read & researched to understand.

How anyone doesn't get how insulting and racist it is to complain about men in drag, yet be unable to discuss that in its separate entirety without swiftly relating it to Blackface, is ridiculous.

How serious are they anyway, if they cant and won't discuss the point without diversion? They know very well that going on about Blackface will derail the conversation towards where they really want it to be. Which isn't really about men in drag.

.

So 'Karen' is not a slur you say? Then ask yourself why there is no male equivalent?

Why does everything have to be a race to the bottom?

@DeeCeeCherry
It was an eye opener for sure.

It is a slur and in the UK it is not used with racial connotations. Whatever the origins of both words they are now used differently and thrown at middle age women to get them to shut up. Terf is also a derogatory term. If you don't find either word offensive fine - but i absolutely do - and just because one offensive term is worse than another does not mean that people should just take it. Why are you angry at people being offended by it - be angry at the people misusing the word

@GreenLunchBox

I agree, OP

Used to call myself a feminist until I discovered the 'feminists' on MN. I have no interest in their brand of 'feminism' and tbh they make me want to use the word 'Karen'

@GreenLunchBox Please don't associate the scope of the feminist movement with the 'feminism area of MM - there are many genuine feminists on there but not all of the opinions on there are a fair representation of feminism.

It is a slur and in the UK it is not used with racial connotations. Whatever the origins of both words they are now used differently and thrown at middle age women to get them to shut up. Terf is also a derogatory term. If you don't find either word offensive fine - but i absolutely do - and just because one offensive term is worse than another does not mean that people should just take it. Why are you angry at people being offended by it - be angry at the people misusing the word

Clear example of spectacularly missing the point and not RTFT.

Bonus points for asking a question that's already been long answered. & the dry 'Angry Black Woman' usual thing🙄.

We can be angry if we choose, actually. & mostly, we aren't. It's a discussion. Anyway.

Easy solutions:

Read, and research.

When Karen slur conversations on other boards swiftly descend into 'yeah but Blackface..' and then dismiss commentary upon the unequal and offensive comparison and why the urge for comparison anyway..? :

Tell them to stick to the point + leave Black Women out of the conversation then we won't be in yours. If your ire is concerning being called the K word..then stick to that and discussing ways in which you can oppose it.

General thread observation -
Men in drag aren't the ones here plopping and clamouring to be most heard and aim to tell us what to think are they? So they're the least of it for me at this particular point

Angry black woman thing? That's reading something into my post that wasn't there - that comment had no relation at all to race - and yes you can be angry if you want and equally people can be offended if they want. Its not up to you to judge what anyone else finds offensive

WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo
The use of Karen: Unacceptable and silencing women

Overrunning a conversation between black women about the co-opting of terminology and exclusion from feminism, effectively silencing black women: perfectly acceptable.

That's how this thread reads. Some of you should be embarrassed.

In a nutshell.

Also:
Reminder that Black Mumsnetters was set up after a Black Woman was subjected to racist harassment by MNers, which included doxxing her. They wanted to endanger her.

Not that I expect ploppers to even care about that, or to put their energy where it actually belongs (ie instead of sitting and watching and trying to police Black Women, tackling the K slur that's supposedly bothering them, with the people they say are using the slur) but know that you aren't going to be elevated to the most important voices here.

Last point on it as dialogue with Black Women and non-faux allies is much more edifying

@DeeCeeCherry

I personally will never use the term “ Womanface” again in reference to Trans issues

Thank you oakleaffy

For 'getting it' via doing what others haven't done because their urge to other, minimise and dismiss Black Women is just too strong - read & researched to understand.

How anyone doesn't get how insulting and racist it is to complain about men in drag, yet be unable to discuss that in its separate entirety without swiftly relating it to Blackface, is ridiculous.

How serious are they anyway, if they cant and won't discuss the point without diversion? They know very well that going on about Blackface will derail the conversation towards where they really want it to be. Which isn't really about men in drag.

.

Tbh. I think calling it a caricature is a valid point by itself, not everything needs to be compared to anti-black racism. 'Woman face' never really resonated with me.

Reminder that Black Mumsnetters was set up after a Black Woman was subjected to racist harassment by MNers, which included doxxing her. They wanted to endanger her.

Oh my god. Do you mean PatricksRum? Is that why she doesn’t post much? That’s terrible. That is scary because I thought MN was secure

Ww here. Thank you for this post. It's important to be reminded/made aware of these issues. I think the term woman's face is extremely offensive to black people. The two are not comparable and to compare drag to racism is deplorable. I do find terms like Karen frustrating as they are a way of quietening woman but again in no way comparable to racial slurs.

I can not stand the feminist group on here. The woman in that group have a very specific ideal of what women should be like and how they should behave and anyone else who dares to think beyond their limited ideology is not included. Not what feminism represents to me at all. I wish mn would shut it down once and for all.

Tbh. I think calling it a caricature is a valid point by itself, not everything needs to be compared to anti-black racism. 'Woman face' never really resonated with me.

I agree. It's a regular and lazy comparison that I see often. Not just on MN but as an example, someone will post a thread detailing some form of discrimination and I can absolutely guarantee that within the first few posts, someone will say "that wouldn't be allowed if it was a black person etc etc. as if to say "well since we're not allowed to discriminate against black people in that way, nobody else she have to put up with it", rather than just addressing the incident from its own context

Its not up to you to judge what anyone else finds offensive

The irony...

I don't know what you think is being judged and I dont care enough to ask

@BluKorner

I’m not black, I’m brown. And I hate the way MNers get so upset about Karen. I’ve tried so many times to educate when I see the uproar but I’m always shut down because white people cannot handle anything that calls out racism. They have literally appropriated a term used to describe racist while women, and turned it into a sexist word just so they don’t have to face the reality of racism by white women.

Because hey, sexism is definitely not ok, but racism doesn’t exist.

WTF? White people have appropriated a term, but no one can be offended at the meaning that has been assigned to that term, because it's not the original meaning?

What a slur? What does slur mean over “nasty thing someone said” mean?