'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

**What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

I’d also like to know the answer to this question**

Me too

@ImInStealthMode

They didn’t just evolve, certainly not “woke.” "Woke" is a word from African American Vernacular English that among Black people in the US has for a long time meant being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination or consciousness of racial issues. Being woke is a good thing

I genuinely had no idea about this until just know.

Thanks for the education. Sadly the rest of the thread is so resoundingly clear that I'm not welcome here that I won't be coming back to learn more.

Have a good weekend all.

You can stay if you're respectful and don't minimise and explain away our experiences. There's nothing 'resounding' about that .

People even write TERF as TF! Ffs

Terf is a word used to attack women. There's a whole Twitter page called something like "your fave would dropkick a woman terf. Is it as offensive as the n-word? No, but you seem set on just arguing every point. And I guess I'm allowed to comment because I'm half black?

Idk about on Mumsnet but sometimes censoring is used to stop people searching words.

@PeeAche2

I'm white too. Sorry to drop in, but this thread is lighting up!

I don't care much for the MN brand of "feminism" and actively avoid their discussions. I avoid even thinking about it and I no longer describe myself as a feminist.

I've adopted a head-in-sand approach and I prefer to just not even think about it.

The woman-face terminology (imo) has always felt like it's pushing against the boundaries of what is acceptable. It appropriates a term long used for another cause - which, in turn, can minimise and dilute the original message.
A few months ago, I saw a young girl wearing a t-shirt that said "cat lives matter" and thought the same 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've thought about it and I've discussed it with my husband (also white) but I've never talked to a black person about it. Truthfully, I have no black friends or colleagues.

For this reason, I have never really considered the impact that the term "woman-face" could have on black women and girls personally.

(I should also I didn't know the origins of the term "woke" and I have been guilty of slinging it around to describe anyone I find a bit irritating 🤦🏻‍♀️)

Anyway, this thread has given me something to think about today so... thanks. Removing head from sand to say this, which can only be a good thing.

This is exactly what being 'woke' means.

I am also white. Scottish, so have experience of Xenophobia.
I’m a trans ally, a huge fan of drag, support the rainbow alphabet, blm supporter, I think men can 100% choose to be women, I support people using any bloody pronouns they want! I don’t care about being called a cis woman. I blocked the “feminism” boards on Mumsnet because THAT is not feminism.
I also love a good “Karen”:video on TikTok.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Karen is more offensive than n. There can be a scale of how offensive things are.

@Mookie81

Completely agree. It really winds me up when I see WW moaning on here about Karen. Its the same problem as the word 'woke'. Both refer to a black experience that has been taken over and twisted from its original meaning. For anyone who barges into this thread to have a pop, Karen actually refers to a particular type of white woman who uses people's race as a weapon against them, e.g. the woman dog walker who threatened the black man with the police, saying she would say a black man was hurting her. It's a particular behaviour, it doesn't refer to any white woman who has an opinion. Woke refers to people waking up to the issues black people face in society- it's not any random 'left' issue that pops up! Drives me mad.

I agree. The word "Woke", is now used as an insult on here, by the majority. It really annoys me.

What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

Nothing.

The priority is Whitesplaining posturing, as ever. To other and argue with Black Women. No different than men arrogantly shouting to be heard due to a belief their voice is the most important.

Much of this thread is a case in point. It seems the plan is to over-run Black Mumsnetters in numbers, in order to silence and hassle Black Women. Bearing in mind how this board came to be, I'm not actually surprised.

If there are any Black Women here who've managed to get through the squatters, I'm speaking to you...

@PeeAche2

I'm white too. Sorry to drop in, but this thread is lighting up!

I don't care much for the MN brand of "feminism" and actively avoid their discussions. I avoid even thinking about it and I no longer describe myself as a feminist.

I've adopted a head-in-sand approach and I prefer to just not even think about it.

The woman-face terminology (imo) has always felt like it's pushing against the boundaries of what is acceptable. It appropriates a term long used for another cause - which, in turn, can minimise and dilute the original message.
A few months ago, I saw a young girl wearing a t-shirt that said "cat lives matter" and thought the same 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've thought about it and I've discussed it with my husband (also white) but I've never talked to a black person about it. Truthfully, I have no black friends or colleagues.

For this reason, I have never really considered the impact that the term "woman-face" could have on black women and girls personally.

(I should also I didn't know the origins of the term "woke" and I have been guilty of slinging it around to describe anyone I find a bit irritating 🤦🏻‍♀️)

Anyway, this thread has given me something to think about today so... thanks. Removing head from sand to say this, which can only be a good thing.

The woman-face terminology (imo) has always felt like it's pushing against the boundaries of what is acceptable. It appropriates a term long used for another cause - which, in turn, can minimise and dilute the original message. A few months ago, I saw a young girl wearing a t-shirt that said "cat lives matter" and thought the same 🤦🏻‍♀️

Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to convey in my OP. It's the co-opting of struggle that has been specific to black people many upsets me.

@DeeCeeCherry

What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

Nothing.

The priority is Whitesplaining posturing, as ever. To other and argue with Black Women. No different than men arrogantly shouting to be heard due to a belief their voice is the most important.

Much of this thread is a case in point. It seems the plan is to over-run Black Mumsnetters in numbers, in order to silence and hassle Black Women. Bearing in mind how this board came to be, I'm not actually surprised.

If there are any Black Women here who've managed to get through the squatters, I'm speaking to you...

Hello! And thank you.

@babbez

People even write TERF as TF! Ffs

Terf is a word used to attack women. There's a whole Twitter page called something like "your fave would dropkick a woman terf. Is it as offensive as the n-word? No, but you seem set on just arguing every point. And I guess I'm allowed to comment because I'm half black?

Idk about on Mumsnet but sometimes censoring is used to stop people searching words.

Thank you for your perspective, the censorship part hadn't occurred to me.

However I am specifically referring to MN, where co-opting black struggles seems rife, and when I've seen t**f it's been used in the context similar to the n word. But we can disagree respectfully.

@lemongreentea

**What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

I’d also like to know the answer to this question**

Me too

Raise the plight of those suffering FGM, helped me as a Muslim woman, protect my boundaries. Loads of examples but I'm busy. This thread sounds like a feminist bashing thread tbh.

Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

WILD.

Feminism has done absolutely loads for the issues that black women and other minority ethnic women face. Eg the right to vote, equal pay and so on. As a minority ethnic woman those are all things that I am absolutely grateful for. There’s nothing worse than women who claim not to be feminists but enjoy all the benefits feminists have won for them.

@flashbac - agreed. Feminists bashing because a lot of feminists are white in the uk (unsurprisingly given the demographic of the population).

The use of Karen: Unacceptable and silencing women

Overrunning a conversation between black women about the co-opting of terminology and exclusion from feminism, effectively silencing black women: perfectly acceptable.

That's how this thread reads. Some of you should be embarrassed.

Don’t like the N word, don’t like the B word, don’t like the slur Karen when used completely unrelated to its original meaning. Don’t like TERF especially when it’s accompanied by “Die in a fire”.

And whilst we are all arguing over this, the Dereks of the world are having a good old chortle.

I've said this before on MN. What white feminists tend to refuse to accept is that my experience of womanhood does not exist in isolation. I experience womanhood through the lense of also being black. That means that whilst you chuck around policies and equalities that have been fought for, you ignore the duality of black womens existence. And if we attempt to explain this, you suggest that we should simply be grateful for what feminists have done for us, completely ignoring a core element of OUR experience of womanhood. Black women and white women simply do not experience womanhood the same way.

So you can bleat on about how awful it is that people benefit from feminism but not be feminists all you like but the fact that so many white feminists have trampled all over this thread and others like it wholeheartedly demonstrate exactly why I refuse to define myself as a feminist.

@DeeCeeCherry

What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

Nothing.

The priority is Whitesplaining posturing, as ever. To other and argue with Black Women. No different than men arrogantly shouting to be heard due to a belief their voice is the most important.

Much of this thread is a case in point. It seems the plan is to over-run Black Mumsnetters in numbers, in order to silence and hassle Black Women. Bearing in mind how this board came to be, I'm not actually surprised.

If there are any Black Women here who've managed to get through the squatters, I'm speaking to you...

This in spades

Martin Luther King had much to say about Liberals who'd claim they were allies but in fact were far more concerned with order than justice. Civil rights for Black people were ever secondary to whatever other cause they had going on but aligning with Black people in faux fashion was convenient for societal 'good person' props.

A but like the racism in the British Suffragettes movement but hey, they won the vote for women so please shut up about the intersectionality of racism and sexism specifically experienced by Black Women. White Women 1st and only.

OP - you may be interested in this wikipedia article. Drag shows originated from minstrel shows.

On the Black Mumsnet board, where I am talking about an issue where I as a black feminist woman find the type of MN feminism exclusive as it ignores the feelings of my race and focuses only on WW, I'm not interested in anyone saying that I (or anyone else on this thread) am not a feminist

I've expressed this view before under another user name - people will react to what directly impacts them. As a white woman I have never experienced racism. I've seen it in action and intervened but the truth is when faced with a situation that I feel is sexist/disadvantages me, I'm not going to stop and think whether that experience would be even worse for another group of people or whether in the scheme of what other groups suffer, it's all that bad.

That is purely due to your experience, and that of other groups who experience discrimination not being relatable to me on a day to day basis. It's not that I don't care, I just don't have the headspace or any remaining emotional capacity to take that on.

Karen is now used as a slur against any woman who doesn't conform to a narrow set of rules about what women are and are not allowed to think and say. I have seen black women being called Karens.

Surely, rather than being angry with feminists on this, the anger should be directed towards those who appropriated a term which had a specific meaning and turned it into a general misogynistic slur?

If spectacularly missing the point & no doubt hasn't bothered to RTFT was a person....

Thank you for this thread, it has been enlightening for me and I am sorry if this is not my place (I'm white).

Your post has really helped me to understand why I feel a level of disquiet when I read some of the posts on the Feminism forum. I do identify as a feminist to a degree and I do agree with some stuff there (including a certain amount of the trans stuff, particularly around safeguarding children). However, even if I agree with some of the gist of what is said, the terms used matter too. I have seen the blackface comparison made, queried by someone who is clearly non white and then that person has been shouted down (and then left the discussion); it is not an acceptable comparison in the first place for the reasons mentioned on the thread and the discussion that then follows is racist/minimising racism and gaslighting.

I also agree (not that you should need my agreement of course!) on "woke". People could use "performative" or "virtue signalling" to communicate the same meaning if they need to. They do not require a further term, far less a term used by the Black community to communicate something distinctive and important. It is laziness and ignorance at best and something more sinister at worst.

I didn't understand the meaning of "Karen" before now. I'm not on Twitter etc, so it isn't one that has come up for me (other than seeing the anger that gets thrown about on here about the term).

The discussion here has helped me to understand a bit more. I'm sorry that you have had negative experiences on MN.