'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

But that's obviously not you OP. You're just confused about how the slurs are being used

I'm not. You're misunderstanding that it's not about how they are used, but how they are perceived on Mumsnet. But that's because you're on the wrong board.

I agree OP. It made me Brit my teeth when the women on mumsnet were demanding that “Karen” be banned.

It infuriates me when people act like being called Karen is a huge offense but stand by and minimize racism.

@flashbac

I'm not white. Karen and women face is in no way the same as the n word and blackface. However they are still offensive, but no where near as the other words. Context is everything. Men don't get called comparable words to Karen, or are used as a caricature. It's not a race to the bottom.

^^ This

But as blacks/non whited with the opposite opinion it looks like we can’t have a proper conversation. The thread is hijacked by the who should/shouldn’t be posting debate

This threadbis eye opening. I never encounter this in real life. Im irish and i live in Ireland. I never knew that the issues ive supported over the years such as benefits for children going the mother no matter the joint income, equal pay, better childcare, encouraging environments that allow women to put their job/income/savings/pension over a partner's convenience...
Safety and support for women leaving relations, protection from the law,

I just dont understand how any of this excludes black women.

What a depressing situation this is.

Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

Measures listed above would empower all women back to financial independence.

Have you read ANY of the thread? And listened to the views of black women?

'Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?'

No, but I would like you to stay in your lane.

@NippyWoowoo

Have you read ANY of the thread? And listened to the views of black women?

'Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?'

No, but I would like you to stay in your lane.

This reply was meant for @JoyLurking9to5

I forgot to use the quote function.

I also need to add, you not having experienced any of this in your life does not mean that it doesn't exist

Cis absolutely is damaging and offensive to women. All women. Terrible term.

Stay in my lane? What does that mean? Accept your pronouncement that karen is not a slur?

I have read the thread, i have no idea what you want other than accept YOUR pronouncement that karen is not a slur and feminism excludes black women.

What is it that exists @nippywoowoo ?
Bad feminists who want better childcare, a benefit structure that supports mothers, back to work supports, equal pay, safer refuges, legislation that supports women.

Everything ive ever cared about, marched for, voted for, lobbied for, donated to has been to support women full stop.

Im not staying in my lane if you're dismissing feminism as racist because its not tackling racism.

@MumUndone

So, because they're not as offensive as the things you've mentioned (which they're not, I absolutely agree) then we can't be offended by them? And if we are offended by them, we're not proper feminists?

There is being offended and there's being opressed/silenced.

I don't think the modern/misuse of the word is oppressive. To me, it's akin to being called a bossy boots, negative nancy, misery guts, etc. So mild, inoffensive and almost lighthearted. Worlds away from the N word imo.

@SouthernFashionista

Cis absolutely is damaging and offensive to women. All women. Terrible term.

Please start your own thread, in a more appropriate place

@JoyLurking9to5 Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

Oh no honey, where would you find time to solve the REAL issues then, such as someone calling you a Karen.

Jesus, there's some jaw dropping statements on this thread.

Also dislike your use of the word 'vitriol'; it's just black women discussing our feelings.

This

Im not staying in my lane if you're dismissing feminism as racist because its not tackling racism

What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face? Or are you focussed only on issues that affect white women? You’re discrediting yourself in your own threads.

I'm not engaging further with white women who continue to ignore requests to leave this safe space and demand mental labour from black women.

I've learned a lot from this discussion. @TheBlackDarner I admire the way you handle difficult posters, and you've given me more to think about (along with many others here). I'm glad I'm not alone

“Woman face” is used to compare dressing up and making fun of women to black face yes. I personally don’t think the discussion or term is offensive. I don’t particularly object to drag but it’s an interesting analysis.

If anyone who uses this term had just a bit of sense. They’d reevaluate the word and realise it makes no sense. It’s the most ridiculous comparison I’ve ever heard and it’s honestly miles away from blackface. Woman face. Really?

What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

I’d also like to know the answer to this question

@dropyoursword such a petty little comment. I wouldnt enjoy being called a karen, but i have put my money where my mouth is. I have marched to keep comm7nity employment schemes opened campaigned for appeal the 8th, emailed TDs, debated on doorsteps. I care about issues that stand between women and their financial independence.
What do you want? Freedom to tell ww they're karens? Do you not want safe places for abused women? Do you not want legislation to support equal pay? Is that not for you?

@babywalker56

What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?

I’d also like to know the answer to this question

So feminism shouldn't be about women but should be about race issues?

They can cover than once they have dealt with the poor men

But just remember that unless you say what specifically is missing but expect people to magically know you are being disingenuous at best

And I am sure that sone of todays very active and prominent none white feminists find your attitudes offensive

What do you want?

Personally I think it would be nice, as a minimum, that you at least respect the rules of the chat forum and let the OP, as a black woman, discuss her experience without minimising or undermining it. Clearly that's just a little too much to ask I guess.

So feminism shouldn't be about women but should be about race issues?

@mudgetastic show me where I said that? A poster commented saying, ‘Im not staying in my lane if you're dismissing feminism as racist because its not tackling racism.’ The counter argument to that was, ‘ What specifically has feminism done for the issues that black women and other ethnicity minorities face?’

So feminism shouldn't be about women but should be about race issues?

And where did I say that?

Feminism should be about issues all women face, and that includes the issues black women face.

So what exactly has feminism done for black women?

They didn’t just evolve, certainly not “woke.” "Woke" is a word from African American Vernacular English that among Black people in the US has for a long time meant being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination or consciousness of racial issues. Being woke is a good thing

I genuinely had no idea about this until just know.

Thanks for the education. Sadly the rest of the thread is so resoundingly clear that I'm not welcome here that I won't be coming back to learn more.

Have a good weekend all.

I'm white too. Sorry to drop in, but this thread is lighting up!

I don't care much for the MN brand of "feminism" and actively avoid their discussions. I avoid even thinking about it and I no longer describe myself as a feminist.

I've adopted a head-in-sand approach and I prefer to just not even think about it.

The woman-face terminology (imo) has always felt like it's pushing against the boundaries of what is acceptable. It appropriates a term long used for another cause - which, in turn, can minimise and dilute the original message.
A few months ago, I saw a young girl wearing a t-shirt that said "cat lives matter" and thought the same 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've thought about it and I've discussed it with my husband (also white) but I've never talked to a black person about it. Truthfully, I have no black friends or colleagues.

For this reason, I have never really considered the impact that the term "woman-face" could have on black women and girls personally.

(I should also I didn't know the origins of the term "woke" and I have been guilty of slinging it around to describe anyone I find a bit irritating 🤦🏻‍♀️)

Anyway, this thread has given me something to think about today so... thanks. Removing head from sand to say this, which can only be a good thing.

@JoyLurking9to5

What is it that exists *@nippywoowoo* ? Bad feminists who want better childcare, a benefit structure that supports mothers, back to work supports, equal pay, safer refuges, legislation that supports women.

Everything ive ever cared about, marched for, voted for, lobbied for, donated to has been to support women full stop.

Im not staying in my lane if you're dismissing feminism as racist because its not tackling racism.

You've obviously not taken anything from this thread or listened to a damn word we've said. It has been made explicitly clear and you're now arguing and hectoring please move on!