'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

I presume everyone knows the ORIGIN of the word Karen and how it all started. I’ve never heard it be used against someone just to ‘shut them up’ or to stop their voice being heard.

I didn't know the true origin until I read this thread. I now consider myself re-educated!

If you are not white then no, you probably wouldn't have heard it used against someone just to "shut them up". But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I've been on the receiving of men calling me "Karen" because I dared to have an opinion. More than once.

Now that I know the TRUE origins of the word I'm even more angry that these men chose to completely mis-appropriate the term.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

The use of Karen: Unacceptable and silencing women

Overrunning a conversation between black women about the co-opting of terminology and exclusion from feminism, effectively silencing black women: perfectly acceptable.

That's how this thread reads. Some of you should be embarrassed.

Haha this! The irony🤦🏾‍♀️

@OutsideLookingOut

I hope as a black woman I can give a different opinion. I agree that women are marginalised by the use of “Karen” especially in the UK where it can be used to just put down any woman usually of middle age and above. The original examples in the US made me feel vindication and relief that there was a name for people who do this but over time it seems women are judged the most and I don’t like it. To think it compares to a racial slur is laughable but I don’t want a race to the bottom.

As for woman face, I agree. I hate how feminist is mocked.

I hate how even in my own community so many women are expected to do everything but I suffer from both racism and sexism but honestly for me the sexism has been just as bad. I think the feminists on MN have a point and I am thankful to have learnt so much here. On the other hand most WW will never know what it is like to be a woman and a minority.

Brilliant post.

I loathe seeing racism and can't imagine what it's like to experience it every single day. But I am an older woman and I know what it's like to experience misogyny and ageism. Not comparable to racism at all but still pervasive. Should we be fighting amongst ourselves or really focusing on the racists and misogynists?

Well obviously they're both helpful terms for men as the time we as women spend arguing amongst ourselves over what is a slur and how to be a real feminist is a good distraction from actually working together to fight sexism, misogyny and the oppression that goes with it.

The black women on this thread, myself included, have stated they are offended and disrespected and do not want white women encroaching on our space with regards to this issue. That should be enough for you.

If men were constantly barging into the Feminism chats with their unwanted opinions they would be up in arms about it.

Show us the same courtesy.

When FWR started in about 2010 we asked for a feminist space. We weren't allowed to have one. There were several 40 page threads in site stuff about it and in the end MNHQ decided we could have a topic about feminism, but we could not have a feminist space because the posters who wanted to come and slag off feminism (F4J were very active here around that time) would not feel welcome.

We have always had men barging in with their unwanted opinions and we have never been allowed to tell them they are not welcome. We get deleted and banned for stuff like that.

We ran out of energy to be up in arms about it years ago.

FWR has never been shown that courtesy.

I think it's excellent that MNHQ created this space and that they didn't make the same mistake again - that they said this is a board primarily for Black women and to please respect that.

However I think it's a bit optimistic to use this space to slag off other boards and not expect a response. I don't believe anyone here would just scroll past a thread on Craicnet or Scotsnet or wherever if it was running down the BMN board.

You could come over to FWR to discuss these issues. Nobody will tell you you are not welcome (or if they do, they will be deleted), even if you just want to post about how terrible our feminism is.

In an attempt to be constructive, are there any current campaigns or causes you'd like us to support? Any particular issues we should be raising with our candidates in the local elections, for e.g?

BTW, the reason 'TERF' is usually starred out is because it's one of the Special Banned Words over on FWR. There's a three stikes = ban rule for using it. None of us wanted or asked for this, it was part of a weird deal MNHQ came up with to make the TRA feel more welcome, basically by making it extremely difficult for us to refer to their sex at the same time.

www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

The use of Karen: Unacceptable and silencing women

Overrunning a conversation between black women about the co-opting of terminology and exclusion from feminism, effectively silencing black women: perfectly acceptable.

That's how this thread reads. Some of you should be embarrassed.

Quite. I've never posted on BMN but I often read the threads and and learned a lot from them.

The comments by some posters on this thread have really angered me.

I'm even now questioning some of what I've read on FWR and seeing it in a whole new light.

Well obviously they're both helpful terms for men as the time we as women spend arguing amongst ourselves over what is a slur and how to be a real feminist is a good distraction from actually working together to fight sexism, misogyny and the oppression that goes with it

However - Reality:

After seeing a slew of non-Black women land in Black Mumsnetters attempting to minimise and silence Black Women - and not just today, either -

The brand of Feminism seen on MN is the distraction that suits men. Sexism seeks to shut down womens' voices. In turn - as evidenced on this thread and almost daily on MN - Feminism compounds on sexism from men by seeking to shut down Black Womens voices.

It's all the same aligned noise.

If half as much time was spent challenging men, lobbying, instead of watching, attempting to police and silence Black women, then I'd have some belief in mainstream Feminism. I don't.

I wouldn't choose to work align with any person or organisation who appears to think their brand of othering is more acceptable because they aren't men

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

I've said this before on MN. What white feminists tend to refuse to accept is that my experience of womanhood does not exist in isolation. I experience womanhood through the lense of also being black. That means that whilst you chuck around policies and equalities that have been fought for, you ignore the duality of black womens existence. And if we attempt to explain this, you suggest that we should simply be grateful for what feminists have done for us, completely ignoring a core element of OUR experience of womanhood. Black women and white women simply do not experience womanhood the same way.

So you can bleat on about how awful it is that people benefit from feminism but not be feminists all you like but the fact that so many white feminists have trampled all over this thread and others like it wholeheartedly demonstrate exactly why I refuse to define myself as a feminist.

Genuinely interested in your perspective of how black women experience womenhood differently?

As for being a feminist, just because I don't agree with all branches of feminism (I'd say it's a pretty broad church) doesn't mean I don't align myself with it's overarching aims. After all, what's the alternative?

• Genuinely interested in your perspective of how black women experience womenhood differently?

As for being a feminist, just because I don't agree with all branches of feminism (I'd say it's a pretty broad church) doesn't mean I don't align myself with it's overarching aims. After all, what's the alternative? *

Our experience of womanhood is intersectional by default. Half the time, we are seen as black before are seen as women. This is harmful because it contributes to the dehumanisation of black women. Often, people forget that we are women full stop. The strong black women trope, mortality rates among black women during childbirth, the treatment of Child Q, just a few select examples of how race is a factor in our experiences of womanhood.

Being a black woman is not some sort of affliction. There is so much joy and pride in who we are in our various cultural contexts. But the challenges of navigating the world as a black woman are also very real and that is what mainstream feminism systematically overlooks. For me, the alternative is Womanism.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

* Genuinely interested in your perspective of how black women experience womenhood differently?

As for being a feminist, just because I don't agree with all branches of feminism (I'd say it's a pretty broad church) doesn't mean I don't align myself with it's overarching aims. After all, what's the alternative? *

Our experience of womanhood is intersectional by default. Half the time, we are seen as black before are seen as women. This is harmful because it contributes to the dehumanisation of black women. Often, people forget that we are women full stop. The strong black women trope, mortality rates among black women during childbirth, the treatment of Child Q, just a few select examples of how race is a factor in our experiences of womanhood.

Being a black woman is not some sort of affliction. There is so much joy and pride in who we are in our various cultural contexts. But the challenges of navigating the world as a black woman are also very real and that is what mainstream feminism systematically overlooks. For me, the alternative is Womanism.

Thank you. That helps me to understand.

I must admit I'm not involved in feminist politics so I didn't realise that black women felt excluded or at least that their specific struggles were not prioritised.

@TheBlackDarner

Is it not possible for Black women to have a discussion on BMN without the I'm white. ploppers falling into the trope being debated? Goodness knows you have a thread on this every other day on the main Board.. Leave us alone to discuss it on our own Board. You think a bunch of I'm white... opinions is going to magically sway our opinion on this Board?

So back off with the hectoring and lectures non Black people, and stop invading a safe Black space because you don't like the discussion and want to control it. Stop trying to impose your white perspective on us.

PersonalIy, ( to Black posters) I detest the use of the word "Karen".

Why? Because firstly Black women of a certain age have that name too. Secondly, a mouthy opinionated ass hole who hates black people usually has a different name. Thirdly, you can't fight racism using a misogynist term. Don't use another ism against racism.

Amy Cooper is not called Karen. Abigail Elphick is not called Karen. Use their real names if you are able.

But you know what? This thread is going to fill up with the Amy Cooper and Abigail Elphick types. Which is how I refer to them. All squatting on here to hector the Black women. Because we are not allowed to think for ourselves by certain non black women. Who love to invade to Tell Us How Wrong We Are Because I'm a White Woman Squatting in a Black Safe Space To Tell You What To Think.

So yes, there is a certain type of privileged white woman who centres herself and is not an ally of Black women. To misquote Muhammed Ali, no one called Karen ever called me the N word. What about the real Karen who spoke up for the likes of Nicole and Bibaa? Why do I need to misuse her name to describe a different group of women entirely?

Using a name, which all colours of women share, to describe a certain group of racist white women (of many names,) does not describe sufficiently how obnoxious the Cooper and Elphick types of this world are.

Racist white women.. Let's be clear who they are, without the misogyny.

Spot on!!! Currently, we ALL are being pushed back to pre-WW1 conditions. We should, rightly, call out, by name, those who are racist and drop the Karen stuff. We do not have to join in the dilution of standing up for ourselves, either as being black or as women. We should also call out by name those who stand up for black women AND women, because whilst there is a difference, there is also not. As for those who slide into Black Mumsnetters to spout more of the same nonsense that is made blatantly clear what is not wanted here, relax your fingers, read and chat amongst yourselves/ behind backs as you so obviously do irl! Irksome. The opposition to being a woman is real. The opposition to being a black woman is real. In my experience, it is this that is the tougher of the two. No worries though, we'll get some giggles out of it all somehow👍🏿

I'd say it's a pretty broad church

I'd say it's not a pretty broad church on MN.

@LangClegsInSpace your pp is the VERY reason why a discussion is being held in this Black Mumsnetters space!
Your experiences in the past with men in your Mumsnet space ought to make you fully empathetic to why we ask for this space to be respected. Your comment about what we'd like you to support is ANOTHER reason why we want our space respected. You know full well how you're coming across and only serve to underline what we experience all too often, why your space is unwelcoming regarding such discussions and why those who make such a stance ought to learn respect and be ignored until they do.
"In an attempt at being constructive" 🙄

Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

Women as a class are not going to be free from oppression without addressing racism. They are seldom separate issues.

There are so many feminist issues that can’t really be addressed fully without considering racism. What about the core feminist issue of domestic violence, for example? How many times do we see “call the police” as the default response to a victim of domestic violence? Does this response take into account that calling the police can result in very different outcomes for a black woman and her black family than it will for a white woman? (I should add that I’m American so speak from that perspective, but I think that there are similar issues in the UK from what I have read.)

And that this black woman has a far greater chance of having to deal with structural racism at every turn in the process? Social services? The judicial system? Even domestic violence agencies and shelters?

So if domestic violence is an important issue for feminism, then disrupting structural racism in the systems that serve survivors of violence against women have to be part of the solution.

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

This.

And this:

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

And three times this:

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

Don't let the ploppers get you down.

A slur is an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation (thanks google) .. the term Karen has evolved from its original meaning to basically called any woman who you'd like to shut up, a 'Karen' so I think it is a slur

@BluKorner

I’m not black, I’m brown. And I hate the way MNers get so upset about Karen. I’ve tried so many times to educate when I see the uproar but I’m always shut down because white people cannot handle anything that calls out racism. They have literally appropriated a term used to describe racist while women, and turned it into a sexist word just so they don’t have to face the reality of racism by white women.

Because hey, sexism is definitely not ok, but racism doesn’t exist.

Why is it white women that are appropriating the term and now, you know.. the people who are using the term incorrectly? (Mostly white men)

@jadey1991

I would also like to add that if the black community feel like they need to use the term karen them by all means they should use it.

Why isit okay for white people to constantly use the N word and black people cant fall white people karens or crackers?

Isn't the whole point that it isn't okay for white people to use the n word?

@OrangeGrovesAplenty

Are white women expected to set aside feminism and SOLVE racism?

Women as a class are not going to be free from oppression without addressing racism. They are seldom separate issues.

There are so many feminist issues that can’t really be addressed fully without considering racism. What about the core feminist issue of domestic violence, for example? How many times do we see “call the police” as the default response to a victim of domestic violence? Does this response take into account that calling the police can result in very different outcomes for a black woman and her black family than it will for a white woman? (I should add that I’m American so speak from that perspective, but I think that there are similar issues in the UK from what I have read.)

And that this black woman has a far greater chance of having to deal with structural racism at every turn in the process? Social services? The judicial system? Even domestic violence agencies and shelters?

So if domestic violence is an important issue for feminism, then disrupting structural racism in the systems that serve survivors of violence against women have to be part of the solution.

All. Of. This

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

I was banned for breaking talking guide lines last week for calling a white woman who was shoting at an autistic 7 year old black girl in a park "Karen". The women on that thread were more appalled that I'd used the term Karen than the white woman having shouted at the 7 year old little autistic girl. Of course. Posters then piled on and called me a deranged and disturb drunk. I dont think they were banned though. Of course. I asked @MNHQ for an explanation, received nothing. Of course.

Banned as in I was suspended.