I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

[FTMF30]

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

• The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time ) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.

• comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).

• the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

• comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.

• comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

I hope you don’t mind me commenting.

As a white person, I totally get why those examples are making you uncomfortable .
And I can only apologise because I can see how my idea of feminism probably only includes issues faced by white women.

@ParadiseIsland I don't mind you commenting and I'm glad that you can see where I'm coming from. I'm actually quite relieved too. I'm half expecting to be attacked for feeling how I feel by some people.

I can see why even as another white women. I wonder how much attention would have been drawn if it was a black women who had been murdered. While we need to aim for inclusiveness I can see how black women can be alienated by modern feminism since it is so very 'white'. It's similar in some ways to the athiest movement in that there is a small but growing group of black athiests in that they often have different pressures and difficulties from their communites when compared to white athiests.

Not to mention the vitriol poured on any black women of prominence. Just look at how Diane Abbot was treated during the last election.

Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman?
Delivered 1851
Women's Rights Convention, Old Stone Church (since demolished), Akron, Ohio

Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say. [1]

I agree with everything you said. I'm not a feminist, the feminist movement always calls for solidarity and not now, whenever confronted with the lack of intersectionality. I absolutely hate when Black ideology about race and equality is co-opted for movements like feminism when it is not directly analogous- it's offensive.

I'm glad Black women have divested. It is wonderful when Black women get together and create movements. Black girl magic, BLM, I love Black women, I think there is so much richness in our experiences, cultures, intellect, and ability to adapt. Feminism is completely foreign to me as it is not about women's rights, just white women, as seen when the same ideals are not applied to Black women. Not one thread in defence of MM for having lunch with PM once, never calling him back and being harassed for 3 years because of it. If she were white, I'm sure so much outrage would have ensued. So no thanks, no feminism for me, I only care about women's rights.

How on earth is the incessant attacking of MM by women who, frankly, are utterly obsessed to an unhealthy degree anything to do with feminism?

You're conflating women and the general public at large with "feminists".
Fine, don't support women's rights. No one is forcing you into it.

@PickAChew

How on earth is the incessant attacking of MM by women who, frankly, are utterly obsessed to an unhealthy degree anything to do with feminism?

I'm talking specifically about posters on MN. There are some frequent posters who generally seem obsessed with the royal family. They will defend Kate to the death, saying women need to uplift and support one another. Yet this same approach isn't afforded to MM.

@blackisblackisblack Such powerful words and ashame much of it resonates so strongly today.

@benelovencd Yes, you are completely right and I'm glad you have mentioned that you can support women's rights without being a feminist. I feel as though it's often implied you don't support women if you don't identify as a feminist.

@FTMF30 it's more the other way around - if you support women's rights then you are by default a feminist - because that is literally the meaning of the word feminist.
I do think your points are absolutely valid though, I am white, and a feminist - supporting ALL women's rights - and I have never considered that viewpoint before, but I absolutely will now. Thank you.

I am a feminist and white, I have also been uncomfortable with the fact that so much attention has been paid to the death of a white woman in comparison to, say, the deaths of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry last year.
I include myself in this as I think deep down I probably more easily identify with a blonde, middle class woman and think "there but for the grace of god etc."
I also think this has come on the back of hearing so much about the increase in domestic violence in lockdown that women have reached tipping point but I totally agree with your post.
I know in my own heart I am for all women everywhere but realise that white feminism may be alienating to black women for all the reasons you stated.

As a white woman I hope you don’t mind me commenting. I agree with you that the UK feminist movement is very much designed around the concerns of MC white women, and while I think eg the gossipy threads about MM aren’t driven by any feminist perspective, it doesn’t detract from the overall point that UK feminism is overall very tone deaf.

I think an effective feminist movement is vital, and the more splintered it is the less effective it is, so I really hope this can change - but right now it is too easily hijacked by (what I think are) minority concerns.

You're not alone. There's a thread at the moment with a horrid title but, (mostly but not all) sensitive discussion.

I think it's a Mumsnet Miracle.

Although I have engaged - I wouldn't have if it was on the Feminism Board.

Yes specifically talking about MN I have seen -

Numerous 'Is this racist/Is this cultural appropriation/My Nan has/gave me a Golliwog it's just a toy isn't it? racist goady posts. With responses from Black Women mocked.

Piers Morgan supported in publicly goading, cyber-harassing a Woman for years - abhorrent behaviour that wouldn't acceptable if his victim had been White. Or if a husband brother son etc had behaved like that; but because his victim wasn't the 'right type' of Woman, he was supported and she was character assasinated. They sided with a man bullying a woman.

Serena Williams when she clashed with an Umpire, and subsequently an Australian journo drew an ugly derogatory caricature of her - the Feminism Board was disgusting. The stereotypical Sapphire trope of the loud, aggressive Black woman who doesn't know her 'place' was fully enforced. All because Serena Williiams dared to speak up for herself, they sided with a man.

Black Mumsnetters Board - set up after disgusting racism towards poster named patricksrum.

Many more examples.

But racism and the patriarchy has ever been underpinned by Women.

Can you imagine if Meghan had gone to Clapham Common yesterday? She wouldn't have been praised, as Kate was. She'd be deemed publicity seeking, arrogant, fake, and a whole lot more. As a mixed race Woman, it's the Black part of her that triggers hate.

I can't take Feminism seriously here because it excludes Black Women.

& It seems on MN some people can't accept not all comment on just one board, or one subject. 'For' Women's rights but not Black Women is definitely a thing.

I get where you're coming from, I've seen it on the boards myself.
You've managed to put into words why on seeing WLM earlier why it felt uncomfortable - you're right, does seem to be appropriating/highlighting BLM.
Feminism on here does seem to be for the "right type" of woman (whatever the f** that means).
You make some great points.

I agree with the marked difference in public reaction and media attention to Sarah Everard’s death compared with the deaths of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry. I also think that the public reaction and media reporting of any issue in relation to Meghan was either overtly racist or driven by racism.

Having said this I’m really interested in your perspective on why blackface is so much more offensive to you than drag?

I am a staunch feminist and support all women, but if non white women don’t feel included, that’s really sad. Fighting misogyny needs all of us. How can it be repositioned?

I think In the main though, MM is attacked because she is American, rather than black. It’s such a different culture to Brits, We may speak the same language but that’s about it! she doesn’t fit the Kate Middleton mould of subservient woman. Which is a feminist issue 🤔

Another white person here hoping you don’t mind us commenting - I agree with everything you’ve said OP. There is a real lack of intersectionality in the kind of feminism espoused on here and in traditional media. I try and challenge it whenever I encounter it in person but I know I’ll never properly understand what it’s like to feel as you do.

I can still call myself a feminist but I completely understand what you mean. I often feel like it is completely centred around white women and we are only there to back them up, but speaking about our slightly nuanced experiences isn’t allowed because it isn’t about them, or they are somewhat racist themselves.

@FTMF30

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

• The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time ) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.

• comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).

• the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

• comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.

• comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

I mostly agree although I think Meghan Markle's an attention seeker and I don't understand the obsession with the B part of BAME in the U.K... why is everything black vs white, this is not the U.S.

Am mixed various Asian/black...

@FTMF30 am definitely not denying that MM is subject to racism though, please don’t think that I am a white woman defending that. It’s just the extent.

I agree with most of what Pps have said.
I get a bit 'fence splinter up my arse' though. I see many women bitterly criticised here, whatever their race.
Kate got quite a lot of criticism on here for going to the vigil, for example. I think there are usually several factors at play- yes racism, but also other things like sexism, or who the attacker was, or the American/U.K. cultural misunderstanding.

I think feminists need to stick together, because we have a hell of a lot of disadvantage to address.

I'm not BAME, I'm Black. Everything in my life is framed by Blackness. I do not identify with being BAME, I have no idea what BAME is, it just camouflages real differences in social indicators and how they affect the Black community, because those who are non-Black with proximity to whiteness have an advantage in everything. This isn't the US, but this country has just as diabolical a history with slavery and colonialism that only ended in the last 40 years. Just because it was off shore unlike the US does not mean the UK is somehow better than the US. A country that as recently as 2015 destroyed documents pertaining to atrocities in former colonies in the latter half of the 20th century is no means innocent or progressive.

Also this is BMN. Of course everything is centred and framed from a Black perspective- that is the entire premise of this board.

I wonder if posters who keep harping on about the US being worse than the UK even realise or aware that in many African countries adults in the 20s and 30s are literally referred to as "Bornfrees" because they are of a "Born free" generation- literally born free from colonialism and the first generation to truly have a fair shot at anything in life despite the problematic and systemic challenges left by colonialism. Please don't say the UK is not problematic or minimise the impact of this country's actions on race.

What is meant when a country is called racist though? A country can’t be, only it’s people can be. No one alive now in this country was personally involved in the slave trade, And lots of us are immigrants, where does the racism come from? What do white women need to do to stop making op and others feel excluded?