I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

[FTMF30]

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

• The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time ) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.

• comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).

• the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

• comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.

• comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

You are right OP. Not very long ago there was a huge report on poor outcomes in maternal health for black women. The Guardian covered it. I came on MN to discuss it and opened the only thread i saw at that time. The discussion was focussed on the fact the guardian had used the word woman for this article but not other articles. I was so angry I couldnt respond. I wish i had said something because i am white and just backed away thinking this isnt the discussion i wanted but now i see a black woman opening that would have felt even worse and totally alienated and if one white person had said wtf they might have felt able to contribute. I wasnt even sure if i could report it as racist as it didnt fit the narrative of what racism is but bloody hell. A group of women are 40 times more likely to die in birth and its the word woman that is interesting. I dont know if the discussion moved on or other threads were opened that actually discussed it - but op im sorry i wasnt there for you and others when you needed support.

You don’t think it’s strange to automatically assume that the first thing that trans women are going to do is rape women
As this has already happened, I don't think it is strange to want to discuss it, no. And you are misrepresenting the argument, we don't think tw are all rapists, far from it, we can see that the statistics show that tw have male-patterned offending rates and so putting them in women's prisons is problematic.

or that prisons are just going to throw any person who claims they’re a transwomen into a female prison?
Again, this already happens ( in Ireland and to some extent in Canada, for example). And recent UK cases have shown how safeguarding has been ignored here and assaults have already happened. Did you think it didn't?

In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

That really isn’t true. Feminism was rumbling before the anti-slavery movement. But when some white women found they were not allowed to speak at anti-slavery conventions they started to look at their fellow “woke” male campaigners and challenge their sexism.

However being anti-slavery didn’t mean you saw black people as equals and many of the initial suffragists were racist. Add to that the
fact the Jim Crow laws effectively stripped black people of any voting rights and it’s clear to see that black women were shafted from both sides.

I thought feminism was for all women. If so, why does it take a black woman (of which we probably take up less than 3% mumsnet) to speak to the battering Meghan gets on a daily basis, largly by a scorned, fat, old man who is not even remotely in her league.

And a married one at that! If his wife had posted on AIBU or Meghan herself about him, many of them would be telling his wife to LTB and Meghan to report him to the police and get a restraining order or share their stories about such men they have dealt with in the past but nope I’m going to hate and trash a woman I don’t know, never met and has zero impact on my life.

Are you talking about Piers Morgan? He's an absolute bellend of the highest order with many years of service as a universally loathed gobshite under his belt. He's employed because he's a contrarian who gets high viewing figures. I've never once seen him defended by feminists, on here or anywhere else. He's almost certainly going to end up on a right wing leaning news channel from where he will continue to 'speak freely' ie chuck around insults and personal attacks. Feminists honestly don't like him.

For me there are several issues raised on this thread.

First of all, the reality is that MN (and the U.K.) is racist. That’s something I’ve noticed for a while. And whilst most people on MN are women, I also don’t think you can say they are all feminists. Far from it. So I don’t you can conflate being a feminist with automatically being racist. I think you have some women who are racist, others who don’t. Some who have no clue/are racist by ignorance of that makes sense. And you have feminists, some of which are feminists and others don’t. I suspect the hard core feminists would take it badly to be told that they are racist.
However... if I speak for myself, even though I don’t see myself as racist, I also appreciate that I am. At the very least because what happens to black women don’t come to my mind immediately as in the exam0es given the OP. I think we (white people) are all racist at some level, albeit sometimes unconsciously.

I also remember reading (I think from the book ‘Why I won’t talk to white people about race’) that often (white) people think that the experience of black women is one of racism plus misogyny as if those two issues were just sitting side by side. Whereas the reality is that they compound each other and the issues experienced by black women are just plainly different to those experienced by white women.
I really can’t comment on that and it stuck with me. So I’m wondering, how do black women think about that statement? Is the issue that actually (white) feminism will always struggle to represent black women about of the difference in struggle?

Last, I think feminism atm is a privilege action. The way it’s approached, the people involved are all in privileged positions (whether it’s because of their skin colour, financially etc....). And it shows.

Piers Morgan really is a good example of the “I don’t see colour” racist.

@OhShutIt

Yes the whole 'woke' as an insult thing is ridiculous.

To me, it literally screams ignorant, self centered and not interested in the experiences of any minority group.

As we speak, there is open support for Jordan Peterson who is quite obviously anti feminist, but because of his trans comments he has support.

Another long running example of this is support for the Conservative party becasue of this one single issue. There is not a true 'feminist' that would support the most hostile, racist, anti immigrant, anti poor, anti working mum, anti single mum, anti disabled mum (the list is never ending) because of one single issue.

Trans women are more of an issue to poor and minority women than access to free health care, decent education, benefits and support services my ass.

It's so tone deaf it's laughable.

This because although there may be harm from both situations. That for an issue that currently affects a minority of women to overshadow so many subsects of women is privileged, to be able to shut all those other things out. Single issue voting is a privilege.

@shrodingersbiscuit, tbh I’m not NAMALT etc...
But I’ve used the analogy with black people. Because that’s the only way I found to make people realise how crap their statement is.

Eg (to my DH) you wouldn’t tell a black person that what they experience wasn’t racist if they tell you it is. So why do you think you can tell me my experience has nothing to do with sexism when I tell you it is?

However, I also appreciate it can be tone death and I actually have no idea what I’m talking about (because I’m not black)

@Lessthanaballpark

In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

That really isn’t true. Feminism was rumbling before the anti-slavery movement. But when some white women found they were not allowed to speak at anti-slavery conventions they started to look at their fellow “woke” male campaigners and challenge their sexism.

However being anti-slavery didn’t mean you saw black people as equals and many of the initial suffragists were racist. Add to that the
fact the Jim Crow laws effectively stripped black people of any voting rights and it’s clear to see that black women were shafted from both sides.

Is this US or UK history?

Also I am yet to meet a BW who says the experience of being a woman is worse than that of being Black and hence they identify with feminism more. I'm surprised as a WW, you know several of this mindset. I'm sure they exist 🙄but most describe being unable to separate the twonbut being uniquely aware of the misogynoir they suffer as people cannot separate the two, or when forced to choose always prioritising race because of how the feminist movement is exclusionary and has a lack of intersectionality.

But you live and learn, BW are not a monolith- so I'm sure these BW who identify more with feminism than their battle with racism exist somewhere

My understanding is that UK voting rights were denied on grounds of sex, age and of land ownership but have never included reference to race.

I'm surprised as a WW, you know several of this mindset.
I'm not in the UK and I guess how you experience any discrimination also depends on your location. Also it is widely believed that misogyny predates racism so I don't think it is unreasonable that for some women it is felt more.

Also reading and finding out Patricksrum was doxxed for fighting for this space makes me so wary of posting on MN now and in particular BMN. MNHQ need to be better about moderating this space especially with those who squat to "debate" when BW are just trying to share their experiences and views with one another. I don't trust that similar won't happen again to other Black posters. Quite scary. Do you know what a mindfuck that is to have to possibly moderate yourself now just in case people take it that far?

But you live and learn, BW are not a monolith

Should be a song with how much this needs to be repeated...

I don't get this attitude at all. "Feminism isn't for me as some feminists have different opinions to me". Well no shit sherlock, people have lots of different opinions, vaginas or no vaginas. What has that got to do with anything?
Don't be a feminist then. Do nothing. We'll carry on without you.

How is support for jordan Peterson in existence within feminism when he is one of the biggest voices to deny the wage pay gap. He has always been pro men/masculinity.

I find it difficult when people don't stay true to who they are.
I am a feminist and I will always call myself that. What I will also not do is deny the divide between race and sexism and misogynior.

I tried womanism, found it over centres men. Feminism as general word covers all female oppression. The only problem is one group dominates more than others becuase of their proximity to patriarchy. Patriarchy in the Western world was built to protect and anchor white women. This encourages the notion of fragility and the need to protect them at all cost.

What we cannot ignore is tge existence of patriarchy in other parts of the world. Women and girls being oppressed by existence of cultural norms which benefit men but detrimental to women Eg FGM. Which is why I can't get on the trans train yo block the fight against FGM.

But at the same time, I want trans people to have their freedom and live a free life. Freedom should be for everyone.

I also, feel feel that feminist who are white are quite insular. No different to how they are regarding race. Sometimes to no fault of their own. However, not bring ignorant is important in moving forward as we are not born knowing it all. People have to be ready to learn and accept mistakes. Do some research if they come across something tgry are not sure off. Learn to think outside the box. I know this is asking much but I believe that the type of people who post on tge feminist board are clever and educated people who can easily expand their minds if they choose to.

the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

As a white woman I am 100% in agreement with you here and to me it was blindingly obvious as soon as the story broke that the magnitude of the public response has been driven by the fact that she was a very attractive white woman. I am actually surprised that this hasn't been called out more, although I suppose it is difficult to do it in a way that is sensitive to Sarah and her family. I cannot even imagine the anger of the families you describe, who have not even had the pretence of justice.

Sorry, this came up in Trending and I didn't realise it was on the BMN board when I posted.

Sarah's family have not yet received justice.

@FullofCurryandparatha

I don't get this attitude at all. "Feminism isn't for me as some feminists have different opinions to me". Well no shit sherlock, people have lots of different opinions, vaginas or no vaginas. What has that got to do with anything? Don't be a feminist then. Do nothing. We'll carry on without you.

This is wilful ignorance considering what has been explained in this thread. The issue couldn't be further away from "different opinions" but well done on your gross oversimplification as a means of minimising the experiences of others. It illustrates the points BW have raised on this thread perfectly.

I prefer to see it as crystallising the issue at hand without the extraneous navel gazing, actually. I could accuse you of wilful ignorance in dismissing that.

Quarks69*

What is meant when a country is called racist though? A country can’t be, only it’s people can be

& It's people are, in the main, racist. We live in a system that casually shrugs off Black deaths in police custody, Black women sexually assaulted raped and murdered, mental health incarceration instead of help, unjust school exclusions, White Men and Women able to build publicity careers and a shedload of money off the back of fashioning themselves into racist "media personalities". & there's much more.

The illegal deportation of 2nd generation Windrush who came here with their parents from colonised countries that had been totally stripped of assets resources and opportunities by Britain - worked and paid taxes here for years then were sent away penniless.

No one alive now in this country was personally involved in the slave trade

But - We the descendants of those kidnapped and enslaved via the Atlantic slave trade, are alive. & here.

In the full knowledge that the living descendants of long dead slavemasters, receive reparations for monetary losses their ancestors incurred when slavery was abolished.

Whilst the descendants of the people they kidnapped and brutalised have suffered the insult of discovering part of our taxes went towards compensating those descendants of the slave masters who who brutally enslaved our Ancestors.

We have received nothing. It's full reparations for White people. Zero reparations for Black people.

Alongside this, priceless and sacred artefacts stolen during enslavement and colonisation, remain in Museums across Britain. There are still shrunken heads and human remains in Museums here.

The ghoulish audacity of some of these so called "liberal" organisations who are racism gatekeepers hiding behind a label of 'cultural diversity' aka 'We won't employ Black people unless as security/cleaners but we'll show off artefacts so we can grab diversity funding)

I've seen a past thread or 2 on that subject, here on Mumsnet:

'Why should you get reparations? Slavery was ages ago. Who is going to pay for it? We aren't responsible for slavery. Get over it'

Lots of us are immigrants, where does the racism come from?

Amongst non-Black immigrant communities coming to UK, there are a good number who are racist to Black people. They assimilate what they see and hear and in any event will be used to scapegoating Black people as it's not just a British thing.

What do white women need to do to stop making op and others feel excluded?

I think this is in a way being answered by other thread comments.

Women's rights are under threat and Women need to unite against that.

Whether that's possible I wonder; if it were possible we'd be a united force to be reckoned with.

But deep down I believe even if solidarity came about, White Women would sooner or later throw Black Women under the bus in favour of the patriarchy.

& those White women who 'get it' are allies, and want rights for all women, just won't be enough in numbers to stop that.

Hence Black Women divest, not least as a matter of safety.

@shamalidacdak

That's why most enlightened Black women are Womanists not feminists

Not true, womanist have a lot of issues backed up by Hoteps.